Just bear with me; I need this.

[ladyofleithian]

At the request of darth_eldritch...

Let's say that this was kind of an old one back in 2011; basically, a bit of a free-for-all conversation thread, so to speak. Thought I'd bring it back if only for detox purposes.


THE HALL OF FIRE



Just talk about whatever's on your mind. Fandom, real life, anything, really. I'm up for listening. :)

Comments

[elizabeth-hoot.livejournal.com]

Gah, I remember physics. Happily, my uni considered astronomy to count as a physics lab, so I don't need any more.

Oh, I just stumbled across a link when I was amusing myself by watching the fandom explode over Simon Pegg, and then clicked around the OT forum and somehow ended up with ten tabs open full of people going "lol people actually thought Leia was pretty??" and whining about RLM and insisting that Luke triumphs because he's just ~so pure~ and then arguments over Lucas' original intentions (no, he always meant Luke and Leia to be twins and for their mother to die in childbirth, really!) and the periodic "you're just nostalgic!" and blaming Vader for Alderaan and Luke throwing away his lightsaber is wimpy and basically everything that has ever bugged me in SW fandom, ever, gathered into one place.

My plotbunnies are always available! In fact, my problem is not that I don't have ideas but that I have so many, so I've started keeping them under a tag for anyone to grab: http://elizabeth-hoot.livejournal.com/tag/genre%3A%20plotbunnies

(A lot are PT because there's so much more room to play around there, but for the same reason they're the ones I'm least likely to write. I may poke at Luke-and-Leia-on-Tatooine though.)

Splinter is HILARIOUS. Luke and Leia actually get into a mud fight at one point. And it also has interesting characterization - Leia is a ruthless Determinator, hardened by her torture and the destruction of Alderaan, while Luke is a brash, naive, natural liar. They're still basically good people, too.

Heh, I haven't read the Inheritance Cycle, but I understand about Twilight - I don't like it myself, but I do love romance novels generally and ... yeah, the wtfery abounds.

Warning: Rambling/ranting/incoherence.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

That's good.

Ah, Simon Pegg. *Sighs* I'm not really familiar with the guy, but it is a bit baffling -- either Dave Filoni has an awful *awful* sense of humor, or the extent of Pegg's prequel bashing is blown *way* out of proportion. (Knowing how batshit SW fandom can get at times, I'm going with the latter. #AtLeastItEasesTheNightmares)

and then clicked around the OT forum and somehow ended up with ten tabs open full of people going "lol people actually thought Leia was pretty??"

Yeah, how could *anyone* find Leia pretty? /sarcasm. Seriously... *Sighs and facepalms*

and whining about RLM

Because God forbid someone actually *dislike* the prequels. /sarcasm. Seriously, guys, someone disliking the prequels won't make the Earth turn on Her axis. Seriously.

and insisting that Luke triumphs because he's just ~so pure~

Yeah, because "he has too much of his father in him" *totally* means "flawless Jesus stand-in who makes no mistakes". /sarcasm. Yeah, I...wish I was kidding on that one. I guess at his core, Luke -- not Faux Skywalker by any means -- *is* a good person, but he's not perfect. He can be as judgmental and petulant as the rest of us -- he just masters it a little better than Anakin -- but it's not Anakin's fault at all! I think if anything, it was Palpatine trying his damndest to make him break. Yes, Anakin broke some things by himself, but at the end of the day, I think it was ultimately him trusting Palpatine too much, and fearing to lose those he loved. *Sighs* And the Jedi's treatment of him as well, including Obi-Wan -- but that's another rant altogether.

and then arguments over Lucas' original intentions (no, he always meant Luke and Leia to be twins and for their mother to die in childbirth, really!) and the periodic "you're just nostalgic!" and blaming Vader for Alderaan and Luke throwing away his lightsaber is wimpy and basically everything that has ever bugged me in SW fandom, ever, gathered into one place.

That has to suck. I'm sorry. *Hugs*

And that's definitely good to know, regarding the plotbunnies! :D *Resolves to take a look sometime -- when I'm done with the AU Big Bang. And maybe the RR-verse*

And that's definitely good to know, regarding SPLINTER. *Sighs* I definitely need some nice, relatively sane Luke and Leia, especially after everything else, really.

And I can imagine, regarding TWILIGHT. :)

Re: Warning: Rambling/ranting/incoherence.

[elizabeth-hoot.livejournal.com]

I'm vaguely familiar with Simon Pegg - he does really hate the prequels/SEs and rages about it regularly, but he just as vocally adores the OT, especially ESB, and is probably one of the most well-known celebrity fanboys. I assume that's why they hired him. He certainly seemed thrilled to play an ESB character in any capacity. But honestly, I think this level of reaction would be excessive if they'd, idk, hired Mike Stoklasa for Palpatine, so I'm probably not the best judge. I did think there'd be more inter-fandom wank with OMG HE'S A STAR TREK ACTOR though.

I think the body policing that goes on around Carrie Fisher is frankly creepy, tbh. Between this and - well, I heard her talking just the other day about how people are like "oh, Carrie Fisher used to be so hot, what happened to her?" - it's just, eww. She's fabulous about it, but also pretty upfront about how it affected her and holy shit ROTJ will be thirty next year and it still hasn't stopped.

(And then these same people are complaining about how we talk about the changes in Anakin's personality but what about the changes in Luke's face? Not the abrupt ROTJ arc, just Mark Hamill's accident. Stay classy, guys.)

wrt the prequels, there does seem this ... I mean, obviously I have my own bias, but there seemed this idea that you must like the prequels to be (1) a real fan, and (2) a decent person. Even though plenty of them didn't. IDK, it was weird. LJ fandom is much more awesome.

Yeah, because "he has too much of his father in him" *totally* means "flawless Jesus stand-in who makes no mistakes".

I know, right? I honestly don't even get saintly!Luke because he's so angry for so much of the time even while being a basically kind, heroic person. Crushing his enemies then turning to the Dark Side to protect the person he loves most obviously means he triumphs by sheer incorruptibility.

but it's not Anakin's fault at all!

mmmm...we have to part ways there. I'd say it's not wholly his fault. I don't think he's ever fully incapacitated, though obviously he's less culpable than Palpatine, and I think that's what would be required for him to be freed of all culpability. (It would also make his reversal much less meaningful for me, personally.)

That has to suck. I'm sorry. *Hugs*

Heh, thanks! But I'm sure you know what it's like.

Re: Splinter - I, uh, well, if you don't mind Leia thinking about how it's improper but so satisfying to press herself against Luke, it's cool. In a poorly-written way. :P

Re: Warning: Rambling/ranting/incoherence.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Ah, okay. *Sighs* I just wonder why he hates the PT. I get a *feeling* why, but at the same time, not quite. I guess if he, say, disliked the draggy scenes, etc., you know...that's okay. Honestly, as long as he's not being a complete asshole about it, I say he's free to dislike the PT. I just wish that the PT and OT camp didn't have to be enemies. Granted, that's not always the case, but still... :/

And on the other end, you've got people like Spoony who say, "Oh, people only liked THE PHANTOM MENACE just because they were so starved for anything STAR WARS that they lowered their expectations" (basically) and yadda yadda yadda. I mean, having different tastes/opinions? What's that? /sarcasm. Granted, he was trying to "prove a point" on why people liked the Michael Bay TRANSFORMERS movies (and *fine*), but honestly...why is he so averse to people having different opinions than him? And it's not an isolated incident either -- both in and out of character, he really seems downright *terrified* of the idea that not everyone thinks the way he does. Or maybe it's just me...? (I'm sorry, Spoony fans. He's otherwise an okay guy)

Yeah, those "body policing" people are asshats. I don't blame you. (Seriously, guys, Mark Hamill didn't choose to get in that car accident. Knock it off)

I think the problem is that they're absolutely *terrified* by the idea of "character complexity". Now, granted, it's not always the case, but I know some people off-LJ tend to take this approach to characters who are even remotely flawed: "He/she's not a one-dimensional Mary Sue/Gary Stu? I don't understand! Kill the bitch/bastard before they infect anybody else!" That or make them into Ron the Death Eater in their fanfics. I can understand calling out a character on really dickish behavior, but some people can take it way the fuck too far, to say the least...

How would you say Anakin's...culpable, in a way (if less culpable than Palpatine?). I mean, yes, he *did* choose to fall to the Dark Side, but at the same time, he didn't quite choose -- he was being manipulated by Palpatine into thinking he could save Padme. Now, granted, some would argue "Why would he see Palpatine as a father figure wasn't Obi-Wan a father figure yadda yadda yadda" but...honestly, I think I'd buy that if Obi-Wan had even remotely given a crap about Anakin, which...honestly, it's hard to think of one time in canon when he did. Okay, there are a few moments, but I can't see many. :/ For that matter, I don't think he really liked Anakin very much. At least, at times, I don't think he did. And it doesn't help that some people think that Anakin deserved to burn to death on Mustafar/was evil from the beginning, so that doesn't help.

You're welcome. *Hugs back*

*chuckles* I think I can endure the Incest No Yay -- as long as the book's fun to read, so to speak. :3

Re: Warning: Rambling/ranting/incoherence.

[elizabeth-hoot.livejournal.com]

From what I've seen, he's criticized the pacing and characterization - I know I heard him complaining about TPM's lack of narrative focus just the other day. He's not really the "they suck! Jar-Jar!" type, as far as I've seen, but he's very abrasive, and as a celebrity, he gets heard. So I guess he could be considered an asshole, and I can understand people getting upset. Just not the idea that he should be punished for his bad behaviour by getting barred from all SW projects.

But yeah, broken base is broken. I see that a lot of us hold largely incompatible opinions, but I don't think disagreeing with someone's opinion should mean dismissing it. Nearly all my SW fans are PT fans and we get on reasonably well, so ... idk.

Now, granted, it's not always the case, but I know some people off-LJ tend to take this approach to characters who are even remotely flawed: "He/she's not a one-dimensional Mary Sue/Gary Stu? I don't understand! Kill the bitch/bastard before they infect anybody else!"

ahahahahaha, yes. I see this all the time, especially because I tend to like heroic good guys with sharp edges. And they tend to have small but committed hatedoms dedicated to extrapolating a secret life of villainy from even the smallest fault, and equally committed fans who try to erase their faults altogether. Like, there was a discussion about Luke using the Force-choke on Jabba's guards in ROTJ. And it seemed like people were either insisting (1) it was purest evil, or (2) it never happened. Just -- come on, it's okay to acknowledge that he's walking a very narrow line without going "eeeeeeeeeevil!!!" or "tralalalalalalala."

Re: Anakin, it's, okay, this is probably going to be long.

I've heard the arguments you mention, but I think they're kind of silly. It's not Anakin's fault that Palpatine was more supportive than Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan was kind of a shitty teacher anyway. Anakin was a very sweet-natured child in horrific circumstances, and nobody deserves to burn alive.

Buuuut. I think he was manipulated, not mind-controlled. He made choices under his own power, particularly before he turned to the Dark Side - when his capacity for making choices was curtailed by its influence, but far from removed. He cries after he slaughters the Separatists because he knows what he's done. He's not an automaton merely acting out another's will, he's a man who willingly sold his soul for the one he loves.

In the end, Anakin Skywalker is a person who's murdered dozens of defenseless people, including children, as well as his enemies, he's tortured his captives, killed subordinates for mere incompetence, aligned himself with an oppressive dictatorship, assaulted his wife, chopped off his son's hand, and threatened his daughter's soul to that same son. He is also the person who risked his life for a group of strangers, fought bravely for the Republic, rescued his mentor a number of times, tried to end a war, opposed a genocide he lacked the power to stop, struggled to protect the child he'd never met, and finally exchanged his own life for his son's, saving the entire galaxy in the process.

He's complicated, is what I'm saying. That's what makes him so interesting and so tragic. But there's no tragedy if he had no choice, and if he had a choice, he's culpable for that choice. I can downgrade it to "partially culpable" because of various extenuating circumstances, but beyond that, it's just ... why?

I actually like Anakin.

Re: Splinter - I think it's fun! Vader's defeat is hilarious.

Re: Warning: Rambling/ranting/incoherence.

[ladyhadhafang.livejournal.com]

Well, that's a relief. *sighs* And yeah -- at least wait and see how he does as Dengar in the episode before you jump to conclusions. It's the acting talent that matters, not the history.

Ah, that's good. *Grins weakly* I guess I just wish the infighting (beyond LJ) would just plain *stop*...

Wow, of *all* the behaviors in ROTJ that bothered them, they fixated on *that*? *sighs* I swear, people can just lose their goddamn minds...

That's...probably the most sensible argument I've heard regarding Anakin/Vader. Seriously. *sighs* I only wish some people would realize that. I mean, if Anakin were as evil as they claimed he was, why would Luke have tried to help him? He must have sensed *some* good in Vader at some point; otherwise, what was the point of ROTJ? #End musings.

On a lighter note... *Makes note to check out SPLINTER when she has time*