Posted at the request of darth_eldritch.
Oct. 20th, 2012 04:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ladyofleithianhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tihqERvvUE
Because I thought this was pretty awesome.
Also, on another note, managed to get around to watching "Front Runners" in Clone Wars.
Good Things:
-I liked the little character beats between the Rebellion. Steela going after her brother after he storms out during the party, Anakin advising Ahsoka, etc. etc. One thing the episode was good at were the character beats between the heroes.
-The action scenes were amazing. The rebels managing to hijack the tank was just...so damn cool. :3
-The battle droids were very amusing, per usual.
-Honestly, I just want to see how the Rebellion handles things. I know the scene with the people of Onderon cheering for the Rebels was really sweet. <3
-The cliffhanger with Dooku bringing in the new general -- I really can't wait for the new episode. I really can't.
Bad Things:
-Even it was kind of the point or something (or there was something that I missed), the dictator of Onderon was annoying as fuck, at least from some of his scenes. I guess his luring his predecessor up from the dungeons to accuse him of leading the rebels to riot (isn't that great logic? /sarcasm) was meant to be a Kick The Dog moment, but if anything -- well, don't get me wrong; it was pretty bad, but at the same time, I was going on the inside "Really?!" I mean, who the fuck does that? I just felt like his job was just to be evil (oh yeah, and eat fruit in front of his predecessor. Evilly.). * You know, evil because the plot demands it, not because of any sort of motivation. Seriously, how awesome would it be if we got a dictator character who genuinely thought that he was doing the right thing? I mean, nobody really acts evil for the sake of being evil. (Well, except maybe Dr. Evil) At least, in my opinion. And I think it would have done more volumes to add shades of gray to the Onderon rebellion than anything else. But nope -- we got generic evil gloating and evil fruit-eating. Badass.
Then again, the invasion of Onderon is just beginning. I suppose when I catch up to next episode, it'll be a bit better, but still...let's say that It Just Bugged Me is all. *Sighs* Good episode, wish that the dictator was slightly more developed.
* I really do apologize for the TV Tropes linkspam. I had to.
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So yeah -- can't really wait for the next episode in regards to how the invasion turns out. Feel free to tell me if you feel that I missed something about the episode, etc.
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Date: 2012-10-20 08:29 pm (UTC)Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 08:39 pm (UTC)I really wish they had gone with someone like Vaklu for the episode. Especially considering that Vaklu wasn't out for petty power or things like that; he (and Tobin) honestly thought that he was doing what was best for his homeplanet (which, of course...you're dealing with the Sith. What do you think is going to happen?). Honestly, I think if the king had allied himself with Dooku because he thought that Onderon had lost its past after it had blended into the Republic, because he wanted Onderon to take back what was theirs...not only would it be a nice callback to KOTOR II, it would be a hell of a lot more powerful. But nope -- we got Snidely Fucking Whiplash. Brilliant. /sarcasm.
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 08:52 pm (UTC)LOL!!
Evil for ebul's sake is too easy. There is a way to do it, but so few get it right.
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 08:59 pm (UTC)*Sighs*
But really, I agree. I mean, while EFES (Evil For Evil's Sake) villains can be done right, they're so often made one-dimensional. And maybe some people off-LJ are okay with one-dimensional villains (and I guess they may have their reasons), but I'm not. It's just not interesting and it's not good storytelling. In fact, I believe there's a quote somewhere from Dean Koontz that says a lot about how I feel about villains: "The best villains are those that evoke pity and sometimes even genuine sympathy as well as terror. Think of the pathetic aspect of the Frankenstein monster. Think of the poor werewolf, hating what he becomes in the light of the full moon, but incapable of resisting the lycanthropic tides in his own cells."
Okay, I first found it quoted in PLOT AND STRUCTURE by James Scott Bell (definitely give it a read, by the way! :D It's definitely helped me in my own writing), but yeah. You get the idea. :)
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 09:08 pm (UTC)And villains that seem absolutely evil, like Palpatine, or a ruthless killing machine, the Terminator, one is impelled to look further, dig deeper, to see what created such evil and why. And Karpyshin, for all his recent failures, did a good job with Darth Bane. Here's a guy who is heartlessly, implacably evil, but he has his justifications, and his background that shaped who he is.
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 09:24 pm (UTC)And definitely agreed regarding Bane. :)
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 09:56 pm (UTC)Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 09:58 pm (UTC)Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 10:00 pm (UTC)Exploring a villain, if done well- this is important- doesn't necessarily make them less scarier. In fact, in ways, it can make them more frightening.
You can also explore a villain, and still keep them mysterious, if that is an important factor.
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 10:07 pm (UTC)And yes, God, yes! So agreed! :D Honestly, I don't get why some think that exploring a villain makes them less intimidating. Hell, sometimes it can make them even more intimidating, or even frightening, because they're more real. I mean, look at Noatak and Tarrlok in THE LEGEND OF KORRA. Look at Khan. Look at Clu from TRON LEGACY, and Darth Vader, and the eponymous character from THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA. Honestly, I'd rather have a well-explored, supposedly "wimpy" villain than a villain with no backstory or redeeming qualities or even reasons for his actions. The former is better storytelling, and honestly? It's what most people are searching for nowadays.
Re: Anakin is displeased.
Date: 2012-10-20 10:15 pm (UTC)I'm not so familiar with the others, but I think those who saw the Prequels first in their Star Wars experience have the advantage of seeing Anakin as Lucas wants us to see him, with no pre-conception from the OT. Lucas knew what he was doing in making Anakin into someone who can be very sympathetic, yet, at the same time, a sulky, bratty teenager in the tradition of James Dean.
Warning: Rambling
Date: 2012-10-20 10:32 pm (UTC)I agree. And besides, the real thing these days isn't the "holy crap Vader is Luke's father" thing. Hell, DOCTOR WHO...would have done it first (Classic Who that is) with either the Master turning out to be the Doctor's brother or the two of them being the same person. It was also part of something with the Master dying to save the Doctor's life after which the Doctor would have regenerated (which they replaced with "Planet of the Spiders" after Roger Delgado's death). Not to mention a special conceived of...I think after the show was canceled with the Doctor and the Master turning out to be half-brothers searching for their father Ulysses. And it would have included all the Doctors, which is pretty fucking awesome in my book. I know the New Series took a swipe at that Master-is-the-Doctor's-brother idea in "The Sound of Drums":
MARTHA: I thought you were going to say he was your secret brother or something.
DOCTOR: You've been watching too much TV.
And in "The End of Time", having it played straight when the Master sacrifices himself to save the Doctor from Rassilon. So yeah, TL;DR...WHO would have been there first. I guess it's still a good twist, but now, it's not about twists anymore. It's about understanding who Vader is and wondering if Luke will take the path Vader did -- and it makes both Luke and Vader (and everyone else) more sympathetic in the process. (Except Yoda. He's a dick. :P)
And very good call on the James Dean thing! :D
Re: Warning: Rambling
Date: 2012-10-20 10:54 pm (UTC)Interesting about the Doctor and the MAster. But, yeah, in these days we want more substance, not just twist relationships or identities. I think the Revan revelation was the best and the final word on that.
Lucas made the Prequels to show what kind of person Anakin was, good and bad. So, to paraphrase an old saying, we have to take the good with the bad when it comes to Anakin. We have to understand that there is something worth saving in Anakin to begin with to redeem Vader. It reminds me of an old Catholic concept of grace, that no matter how evil someone is and how much humanity they lose, there is that part that God puts into every human that is good no matter how much they forget. It's not an easy concept to understand at times, but being a Jedi is not an easy thing- which is where I think Luke really did do a lot of good. I will, also, mention that how important this was to an old friend of mine who often struggled with how much as sinner she thought she was, that there is that grace. So there is a lot of very important spiritual overtones to this. Of course other religions and beliefs hold the same concept. I mention Catholic because that is what I am most familiar with.
Re: Warning: Rambling
Date: 2012-10-20 11:32 pm (UTC)But that's -- that's fucking awesome! :D And it really does say volumes as to how Lucas wanted Anakin portrayed: as a well-meaning if flawed young man who fell to the Dark Side if only because of the desire to save his wife (and *not* power for power's sake). I remember reading somewhere that Lucas made Anakin nine in TPM to make his separation from his mother all the more powerful. Which I say worked a little too well, really. Never let it be said that Lucas can't write some damn powerful scenes. :)
Well, happy to oblige! :D I love Behind the Scenes stuff; that's one way I found it. Also remember some really cool bits from THE WRITER'S TALE (basically, Davies' book on his process of writing DOCTOR WHO) including one line that unfortunately didn't make it into "Journey's End", between Rose and Davros when they're on the Crucible:
ROSE: What happened to you? I mean, your face, your eyes...
DAVROS: Do you pity me, Ms. Tyler?
ROSE: Someone had to once.
Which I think ties into the matter of villains. Someone had to pity them, once. And it ties back in with Anakin. Someone had to pity him once -- Shmi, Padme, and later Luke. And it's one of many reasons I absolutely love Rose; for all her flaws, she's incredibly compassionate. Incredibly flawed, like most good characters are, but incredibly kind. And it's why I love DOCTOR WHO, especially RTD's Who -- the themes of compassion. I already told you about the Doctor and the Master, but the themes of compassion actually run pretty strong through the series. True, there are moments the Doctor is pushed to the brink, but normally, he's probably one of the most loving souls you could ever meet. I know the "I forgive you" scene was a wonderful antidote to Luke's "compassion is for those who deserve it" scene in ALLIES. Sort of like being reminded there's still hope.
And I agree. There's a certain amount of childlike wonder (in a sick way)in someone learning Vader was Luke's father for the first time, but we want substance over smoke and mirrors, I agree. I know that I want that most of all. It's why I prefer the RTD era to the Moffat era of WHO, though I love them both, because of the sheer amount of substance and emotion in there. Of you ever have the words in any medium of "why should I care what happens to these characters", your story is dead in the water. The...customer, for lack of a better word, puts it aside to look for something else.
Very well-said regarding the Catholic religion! :D And honestly? I think that's the best way to describe it. I really do. And the matter of Anakin. On another note, I don't get why people say that his skills as a pilot are never shown. I mean, what, does landing a flaming half of INVISIBLE HAND not count? I mean, really! But yeah, I agree.
Re: Warning: Rambling
Date: 2012-10-21 12:29 am (UTC)Palpatine reverted to using Padme because he saw that tempting Anakin with power for power's sake was not enough. Sure it played to some degree in a lot of Anakin's thinking- "my new empire" and all that, but it wasn't enough to make him fall to the dark side in the first place. Palpatine had to play on something that was intrinsically good in Anakin, no matter how it may have been intertwined with more selfish reasons such as clinging unhealthly to Padme. Anakin could not allow someone else to die because of his actions. It is only after he accepted Palpatine and his teachings that he killed children and countless other innocents. It is both a very common and very old theme that works every time. The more good the person is to begin with, the more sweet their corruption and fall is to the wicked, and the more evil they become because of that good that was intially in them. It's taking something great and turning it inside out. This is an old theme and a very well known one.
Rose sounds awesome! I think some people cannot accept this kind of "woobiness" because it is a healing light that cuts down so deep that it can be frightening. (There is a lot of spiritual teachings behind this, in case anyone is wondering.) It sounds like they've really changed the Doctor, which is probably for the good, because I left the Doctor Who fandom because I had sensed something cold and distant about the Doctor, and couldn't buy the excuse, "Well, he's alien and distant in thought." Which sounds sloppy, really, no matter how much I loved those old shows.
With Lucas aligning the Jedi with so many Budhist concepts- beginning with his basing the Jedi Order on that Asian one I mentioned- I should get out that book that delineates exactly what Lucas decided on and why about the Jedi- compassion by necessity is central to the Jedi. It doesn't need to be said, but the best of EU writers have expanded on it with apparently Lucas' blessings. Look at what Lucas said about Mathew Stover. Lucas does not present Anakin for judgement or for even forgiveness, but simply for understanding, which entails an objective compassion. Even the Bible has a critical passage, Hate the sin, but not the sinner. There is a lot to condemn and loathe about Darth Vader, sins so black, but utltimately there is something to redeem.
Thanks. A lot of concepts here are things I have studied and meditated upon for years. Not just Catholic ones, but others. A great deal of it comes from Angel workings.
Warning: TL;DR (1/2)
Date: 2012-10-21 01:19 am (UTC)And yeah, I think Anakin does have a degree of that...power-thinking-thing, for lack of a better word, but fundamentally, it arises from good intentions. I know that in the meadow picnic scene (I know, I keep going back to that scene, but I really like that scene, I really do. :), he tells Padme that his ideal Senate would involve people just being told what to do in order to make a better galaxy (from what I remember; honestly, considering Anakin back then, I don't think it's that much of a stretch) and just having them do it. I think the problem is that Padme has a bit more experience in regards to how the Senate works, while the most of what Anakin's seen is stuff like the crisis on Naboo with the Trade Federation. Hell, I doubt it would be a stretch that Padme's conversation with him about the Queen (meaning herself) being worried about her people suffering and dying left an impact on him -- as did everything about that occupation. Hell, ever since he was a little boy, he felt the urge to help people. I doubt it's much of a stretch that it carried over from when he was a child to the present day, and I think it might put a new spin on his complaining about Obi-Wan in AOTC. He genuinely feels held back and restless and I guess not good enough, which only gets worse in ROTS. Honestly, in a way, he reminds me a bit of Donna from DOCTOR WHO -- there's a scene in "Journey's End" when a Doctor clone (it's a long story)...well, they have this exchange (copied from the TV Tropes Tearjerker page for DOCTOR WHO just for reference):
Doctor: No, but you are, you...Oh... you really don't believe that, do you? I can see, Donna... what you're thinking. All that attitude, all that lip, 'cos all this time... you think you're not worth it.
Donna: Stop it!
Doctor: Shouting at the world 'cos no-one's listening. Well... why should they?
Donna: Doctor. Stop it.
I think it really sums up Anakin well. All of his attitude, all his perceived "whining" and being confrontational -- part of it's just being a teenager, part of it's being frustrated...and part of it's because he thinks he's not worth it. And even as Vader, he doesn't think he's worth it. After all, he wouldn't have told Luke that it was too late for him if he didn't have some guilt in there -- if he didn't believe, in a sense, that he wasn't worth it. I guess on the other hand though...if there's one good thing that Luke did -- at least for his part -- it was tell Vader, in a sense, that he was worth it.
To sum up, I definitely agree. Also, the whole better the person, the worse the fall thing, for lack of a better word? Definitely sums up Anakin's fall.
Re: Warning: TL;DR (2/2)
Date: 2012-10-21 01:20 am (UTC)And the healing light thing definitely makes sense. People are afraid of things that hit too close to home, and things like this...yeah, it makes sense.
It sounds like they've really changed the Doctor, which is probably for the good, because I left the Doctor Who fandom because I had sensed something cold and distant about the Doctor, and couldn't buy the excuse, "Well, he's alien and distant in thought." Which sounds sloppy, really, no matter how much I loved those old shows.
Definitely agreed regarding the sloppiness, so very much.
And yes, they've definitely taken the Doctor in a different direction. He's definitely more human than prior incarnations -- he's a lot darker and sadder and more flawed, but still very much the Doctor in terms of his noble nature (even if he does have darker moments). In fact, I recall Russell T. Davies saying something about making DOCTOR WHO darker not for the sake of Darker and Edgier, but because in terms of making the Doctor more human, the audience could cry with him, laugh with him, etc. Which I think is the best reason to make a character darker that I've ever heard, really, because great characters...you laugh with them, you cry with them, you cheer with them and shiver with them; whatever they go through, you go through it with them. And even with the unlikeable ones, you still are fascinated by them. I think it's why DOCTOR WHO's new grittiness is more tolerable than LOTF-FOTJ and TOR's wannabe grittiness, because at the very least, Davies (and Moffat) took the story very, very seriously. Hell, I wouldn't even call it Darker and Edgier -- Smarter and Deeper is probably more like it. Like KOTOR II, it's definitely a darker take on the story done right.
With Lucas aligning the Jedi with so many Budhist concepts- beginning with his basing the Jedi Order on that Asian one I mentioned- I should get out that book that delineates exactly what Lucas decided on and why about the Jedi- compassion by necessity is central to the Jedi. It doesn't need to be said, but the best of EU writers have expanded on it with apparently Lucas' blessings. Look at what Lucas said about Mathew Stover. Lucas does not present Anakin for judgement or for even forgiveness, but simply for understanding, which entails an objective compassion. Even the Bible has a critical passage, Hate the sin, but not the sinner. There is a lot to condemn and loathe about Darth Vader, sins so black, but utltimately there is something to redeem.
This. Seriously.
And I think it's one thing that makes good EU. Good EU expands on the story and enriches it. Bad EU mostly twists a great story to fit the author's own vision of what the story should be. Good EU gets the point; bad EU misses it.
And you're welcome.
And that's really interesting! :D
Re: Warning: TL;DR (2/2)
Date: 2012-10-21 02:37 am (UTC)The problem that Anakin has in this whole thing is he has a hard time letting go of things. As he sought more and more power to try to change people's fate so that they're the way he wants them, that greed goes from trying to save the one you love to realizing you can control the universe.
Yeah, there is a whole lot of unhealthy in there that produces a lot of bad, but it ultimately comes from something originally good. To dismiss Anakin as strictly bad and has no redeeming points miss a lot of nuance. Often a budding villain will destroy all of those around him becaus he can just for the wickedness of it. Anakin's comes out of fear for those he loves.
EU deserves to judeged on its own merits alone. Good, or bad. I agree with the twisting of the story. That's how sueism starts. The good EU is great and needs to be acknowledged as such.
Re: Warning: TL;DR (2/2)
Date: 2012-10-21 03:07 am (UTC)And that Lucas quote definitely sums it up beautifully. :)
And so agreed regarding the EU.
but the fruit was the best part!
Date: 2012-10-20 09:14 pm (UTC)But yes, anywho. I agree with you on...practically everything. I'm not spoiling anything, but the general actually presents good dynamics on morals.
Re: but the fruit was the best part!
Date: 2012-10-20 09:23 pm (UTC)And agreed, so very much! :D