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ladyofleithian...and it was really, really good! :D (No surprise there, I know. XD) Honestly, I have to say it's both my favorite and my least favorite of the LOTR movies, because on the one hand, it's definitely the best of the LOTR movies, but on the other, it was the only movie with its, well, really irritating moments. (Mostly regarding Denethor, which I'll cover shortly) Doesn't stop it from being lovely, though. :)
Things I Loved:
-The opening flashback, with Smeagol becoming Gollum. It's one of the rare exceptions to the "don't put your flashbacks at the beginning" rule, IMHO.
+ Hell, just Gollum in general. But then again, Gollum's always awesome.
-The friendship between Frodo and Sam.
+ "I'm glad to be with you, Samwise Gamgee. Here at the end of all things."
* And while we're on the subject, the reunion of the Fellowship, the coronation of Aragorn (including Aragorn and Arwen's reunion, to boot -- especially Elrond's reaction ), "you bow to no one", returning to Hobbiton, Sam and Rosie's wedding, a last bit of humor with Frodo and Bilbo ( "I'm sorry, Uncle. I think I lost [the Ring]." ), and Frodo saying his goodbyes to Merry, Pippin, and especially Sam (plus the one last smile he gives the three of them ), and the final scene with Sam and Rosie, as Frodo encourages Sam (via voice-over, naturally. :) to keep living. "One cannot always be torn in two..."
+ And then the credits, with the song "Into The West" playing -- doubly poignant considering it was written for a friend of theirs who succumbed to cancer. Let's say I did a post on this quite a while ago, when I was still in eleventh grade.
-The reunion with Merry and Pippin (I just love Gimli's response. :) A lot of people didn't react kindly to film!Gimli, but I personally liked him. It would have been easy for him to go into annoying territory, but because of John Rhys-Davies' undiluted awesome -- plus the writing -- it works. That and most of the humor comes from him "overcompensating" at times and bickering with Legolas, not from his stature). That and considering THE TWO TOWERS and everything, it was just a relief for the hobbits to meet up with Aragorn and co. again. It's both adorable and funny at the same time.
-Saruman's death. Because they couldn't get The Scouring of the Shire into the film (more on that later), they transplanted it to the top of Orthanc tower and it worked. It really did. There's something beautifully karmic about Saruman's death scene -- basically dying on the machinery that he created, at the hands of a minion he constantly mistreated. Plus, his words to Gandalf before his death are pretty nice foreshadowing for what happens later with Denethor.
-The relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn, as well as Aragorn and Arwen. Poor Eowyn...*Pets her*
-The relationship between Eowyn and Theoden, such as at the banquet scene (also a nice little touch on Theoden's character growth, considering Bernard Hill was pretty adamant that Theoden didn't "get better" immediately after he snapped out of the spell Saruman put on him. That he still has some guilt left over for failing his people, failing his niece, etc., and it's up to Aragorn, Eowyn, Gandalf, etc. to remind him that no, it wasn't his fault) and, later, when he comforts Eowyn after Aragorn basically dumps her. (The scene's also a nice bit of foreshadowing for what ultimately happens to Theoden on the fields of Pelennor -- he's basically saying to Eowyn, "If I don't return from Pelennor, rule in my stead.") Which ultimately makes Theoden's death at the hands of the Witch King all the more heartbreaking and Eowyn's battle with the Witch King all the more awesome.
-Eowyn's battle with the Witch King. Just...all of it.
-Arwen ultimately choosing mortality. Not only is it a quiet CMOA for Arwen (who's been torn between love and duty to her father), but it's also a very beautiful sequence. It really does show where Arwen's true strength lies -- not in strength of arms, but in her faith in and love for Aragorn. I think both Hugo Weaving's and Liv Tyler's performances really stand out here, especially in this exchange:
ELROND: Your hands are cold. The life of the Eldar is leaving you.
ARWEN: This was my choice, Ada -- whether by your will or not, there is no ship now that can bear me hence.
Just something about Liv Tyler's delivery there just...breaks my heart every time. And shortly afterwards, Elrond calls upon the elven smiths to reforge Narsil -- for Arwen's sake.
+ Elrond is particularly awesome in this film -- going to Dunharrow to deliver Anduril to Aragorn because Sauron's power is spreading through all of Middle Earth, infecting everything -- including Arwen, who's dying.
ELROND: Put aside the Ranger. Become who you were born to be. Take the Dimholt road.
And then, later, lines from the ROTK appendices ("The Tale of Aragorn And Arwen") originally said by Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, long before she died (had to look these up on Arwen-Undomiel.com, just in case):
ELROND: Ónen i-Estel Edain.
ARAGORN: Ú-chebin Estel anim.
Which calls back to their talk in the FOTR Extended Edition, with Elrond, despite everything, having faith in Aragorn -- it's only Aragorn's doubt that's holding him back.
-The culmination of Aragorn's arc in ROTK is just...awesome.
-The Battle at the Black Gates. All of it. From Aragorn's speech to Gimli and Legolas' exchange ("Never thought I'd die fighting side by side with an elf." "How about side by side with a friend?" "Aye, I could do that."), to...basically everything, the Black Gates was just perfect.
- Faramir and Eowyn. One of those many cases when you go, "Why oh why was this cut from the theatrical release?"
- The talk with Pippin and Faramir in the EE. Which makes Faramir's already depressing suicide mission all the more heartbreaking. It's also nice if only because you get to see Faramir smiling as well -- poor boy needs all the smiles he can get. *Pets him*
-The relationship between Merry and Eowyn. Hell, I think Eowyn's good at bringing the awesome and heartwarming in both TTT and ROTK, IMHO.
- Faramir and Denethor's conversation in the Extended Edition. Although I have to say, Denethor? Calling Frodo a witless halfling? Not Helping Your Case. (More on Denethor later) Bit of trivia: Faramir's lines in the movie are actually Gandalf's in the book -- but I think giving them to Faramir here makes them all the more powerful, and show how much Faramir's grown since TTT. (#Why oh why did they have to cut it?)
+ The scene where Denethor basically sends Faramir to his death. Both David Wenham and John Noble did amazing jobs there -- and one interesting bit I can't believe no one else pointed out, when Denethor says, "Yes, I wish that", he actually sounds...close to tears whilst doing so. Perhaps he's still grieving for Boromir and blaming Faramir for it, perhaps he genuinely doesn't want Faramir to go (if Gandalf is anything to go by), or maybe a little of both (again, if Gandalf is anything to go by). Considering what Gandalf says later (see below), I'm thinking that inside, Denethor was going, no, Faramir, I'm sorry, I never thought that, stay, don't leave me but it ultimately came out as "Yes, I wish that." (On the other hand, there's the matter that if Faramir hadn't stepped in, Pippin would have been sent out instead -- sort of Faramir Taking the Bullet for Pippin, really)
* And later, The Last Son/The Edge Of Night . Though the mood is slightly ruined/slightly not ruined by Denethor gobbling tomatoes like a three year old (on the one hand, ew, but on the other hand, it does add to the atmosphere. A little more later, considering I have...mixed feelings about Denethor), it's still a lovely scene. And we get this lovely line from Gandalf:
GANDALF: Your father loves you, Faramir -- he will remember it before the end.
Which makes what happens later with Denethor all the more heartbreaking, really. Because in the funeral pyre scene, before his ultimate run off Minas Tirith, he does call out to Faramir, almost as if begging his forgiveness -- before the flames ultimately consume him. On the commentaries, Peter Jackson does refer to Denethor as a very Shakespearean character, and I think it's true here, especially -- I think it just hit me whilst typing this, really. :) (And if the Cordelia-to-Eowyn comparisons in TTT are anything to go by -- even Bernard Hill Lampshades this on the TTT commentary! -- that's not the only Shakespeare reference we get in the LOTR movies)
-The battle scenes. All of them.
-The scene where Eomer finds Eowyn near-dead on the battlefield, and later, Eowyn's recuperation in the Houses of Healing. (And yes, that song -- that is Liv Tyler singing)
Headscratchers:
-The depiction of Denethor -- because as much as I praised it above, I still have my issues with it. In the book, he's not...well, nice, per se (one thing you can give him credit for is that he did his damndest to rule over Gondor whilst basically being demoralized by Sauron), but in the movie, they definitely exaggerated his...not-niceness, to the point that if you didn't read the books, you wouldn't be aware that he had any redeeming qualities. (Although to be fair, they do try and give him some, such as his relationship with Pippin, etc., but considering what happens later...yeah) John Noble did do a decent job, though, and as time's gone on (and I've listened a bit to the commentaries -- call it "practice" for my screenwriting, because when I first started this blog, I intended to be a screenwriter -- and still do), film!Denethor's kind of grown on me. But I guess one could say the way they handle him is...very critical, to say the least.
+ On the director/writer's commentary, Peter Jackson notes it's very difficult to translate madness to screen -- I'm guessing he speaks from personal experience considering one of his previous films, HEAVENLY CREATURES. That, or at least translating Denethor's madness was difficult. Some scenes he used to do this include, for example, the, um, dinner scene * whilst Faramir's making his suicidal charge to reclaim Minas Tirith. *Winces remembering it* I'm not saying it was terrible because it was well-done -- some nice juxtaposition between Pippin singing, Faramir charging to his death, and Denethor...y'know. On the commentaries, Jackson said he did it because if you basically sent your last surviving son to his death, you'd...lose your appetite, to put it mildly. And for all intents and purposes it worked -- most of the people I've come across commenting on that scene have basically noted how unsettling it is. ** (Although I can't quite take it seriously anymore thanks to EggoWaffles' parody of it, here and the following amusing exchange from Rifftrax:
DENETHOR (whilst eating tomatoes): And why should your songs be unfit for my halls?
KEVIN MURPHY (?) (as Pippin): Well, it's just they're kind of napkin -- I mean nasty --
DENETHOR: Come, sing me a song.
Bless you, Rifftrax. :3
+ The costume designer Ngila Dickson also brought up the issue of translating Denethor's madness to screen -- at least visually, in his costume, making him menacing. Basically coming up with the most elaborate of fur pelts, etc. without resorting to color.
+ The scene where Faramir's brought back after being "killed" -- come to think of it, that's another one of the rare things the movie didn't explain very well. Because in the book, he has the Black Breath (it's hard to sum up, but TL;DR, if it's not treated, the victim basically loses the will to live), but in the movie, it's not really explained. TBF, the nature of the Nazgul and the fear they spread *is* difficult to translate to screen, to say the least -- in the book, Denethor's basically been driven to the point of despair; even if Faramir's not dead, the city's still dying around him. In the movie, they kind of add in a layer of Never My Fault -- Denethor basically going into a psychotic rant about how Minas Tirith's doomed, Theoden's betrayed him, etc...trust me, Gandalf whacking him with his staff is very cathartic. And probably necessary, considering that if Gandalf hadn't done it...well, Gondor would have been doomed, to sum it all up. If Gandalf hadn't taken the reins, so to speak, they would have been in trouble.
* Then there's the matter of Denethor's relationship with Faramir itself -- in the books, Denethor hates Faramir because he's kind of replaying the destructive relationship he had with his father, Ecthelion, when he was a boy (Ecthelion preferred Aragorn -- even though Aragorn technically wasn't Ecthelion's son, it still hurt Denethor a bunch, to put it mildly) -- favoring the warrior (Boromir) over the scholar (Faramir). In the commentaries, it's kind of inverted, one could say -- Denethor's jealous of Faramir, in a way -- what Faramir has that Denethor doesn't (indeed, in the Extended Edition, Faramir notes how similar Denethor and Boromir were, and even hints that Denethor, in a way, used to be a loving father and a stern ruler before he fell victim to the Palantir). Irrational jealousy to boot, considering that Faramir loves his father dearly and wants to please him. And then there's the theory that Finduilas, Denethor's wife, died giving birth to Faramir -- so every time that Denethor looks at Faramir, he sees Finduilas' face.
I don't think either incarnation of Denethor's worse than the other (and honestly, Jackson could have done worse with Denethor. *Cough* The John Boorman version *Cough*), but going over movie!Denethor trivia a bit is...interesting, to say the least. (Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. :) Still think Jackson could have done better though -- it wasn't that film!Denethor was bad, per se; it was just that everything else was so amazingly good that film!Denethor was kind of disappointing, really.
-On a bit of a lighter note, I was kind of bummed that they cut out the Scouring of the Shire -- then again, it was more the filmmakers focusing the story more on Frodo's journey to Mount Doom, and the climax of Frodo destroying the Ring. Still would have been badass to see, though.
+ And also, the "go home" scene -- it wasn't poorly done (quite the opposite, really), but my God, the filmmakers nearly gave me a heart attack there. XD According to the filmmakers, they mostly did it to up the jeopardy in terms of Frodo entering Shelob's tunnel alone, to show Frodo as an imperfect, flawed character, to build the suspense, to demonstrate the power of the Ring (sort of the same rationale for Faramir), and, in a way, to reaffirm the strength of both Frodo (when he takes back the Ring at Cirith Ungol, it's not out of greed, but a desire to protect Sam. He's ultimately learned his lesson back in Shelob's lair -- he takes the Ring back not out of selfishness, but selflessness) and Frodo and Sam's friendship (as this lovely blog post basically puts it, every step they make towards Mount Doom is for each other). Although one could argue it's slightly ruined when Frodo lunges for Gollum after Gollum takes back the Ring, sort of like, "It's my Ring! Mine! Mineminemine! I have learned nothing!" *** (But then again, that's the power of the Ring)
* Which is interesting considering that in the book, Denethor's much more...restrained, one could say.
** Come to think of it (mostly looking at the review page for "What Have Tomatoes Got To Do With Anything", probably one of the only fics on FFN where the comments are actually awesome ), maybe my LOTF-Luke-to-movie-Denethor comparison is slightly flawed -- for all of LOTF!Luke's numerous sins, at least he didn't gobble down tomatoes while Caedus and Jaina were fighting to the death. (Even that's a bit flimsy of a redeeming quality, though. XD)
*** Although it could have been worse -- one of the original thoughts for the Gollum confrontation was to have Frodo actually push Gollum into the lava. They ultimately abandoned the idea, not because it was untrue to Tolkien (indeed, quite the opposite; if Gollum hadn't intervened, it would have been likely that Frodo would have thrown himself into the fire instead. And if Gollum had been pushed, it would have been less malice and more intent to save Middle Earth), but because of the Moral Dissonance factor. They decided to go for a bit of a more "tug of war" thing -- Gollum still falling over by mistake, but Frodo not being a passive bystander either -- which, in the filmmakers' eyes, would have been kind of a letdown for everyone following Frodo. Does it miss the point? Maybe. But it definitely works better in terms of cinematic translation.
And those are my thoughts on ROTK. I remember when My Geek Blasphemy did a poll on what movies should never be remade, I chose FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING (sort of speaking for the entire RINGS trilogy in general). Why? Because maybe it would cover more ground regarding the LOTR movies, but I doubt anyone would be able to match the passion and heart and simple *duty* that Peter Jackson and co. captured. (And no one really has. Which is kind of depressing and yet awesome when you think about it) He may not have made LORD OF THE RINGS, but as far as I know, Peter Jackson is LORD OF THE RINGS. 'Nuff said. :)
And those are my thoughts on ROTK. Can't wait for THE HOBBIT!
Things I Loved:
-The opening flashback, with Smeagol becoming Gollum. It's one of the rare exceptions to the "don't put your flashbacks at the beginning" rule, IMHO.
+ Hell, just Gollum in general. But then again, Gollum's always awesome.
-The friendship between Frodo and Sam.
+ "I'm glad to be with you, Samwise Gamgee. Here at the end of all things."
* And while we're on the subject, the reunion of the Fellowship, the coronation of Aragorn (including Aragorn and Arwen's reunion, to boot -- especially Elrond's reaction ), "you bow to no one", returning to Hobbiton, Sam and Rosie's wedding, a last bit of humor with Frodo and Bilbo ( "I'm sorry, Uncle. I think I lost [the Ring]." ), and Frodo saying his goodbyes to Merry, Pippin, and especially Sam (plus the one last smile he gives the three of them ), and the final scene with Sam and Rosie, as Frodo encourages Sam (via voice-over, naturally. :) to keep living. "One cannot always be torn in two..."
+ And then the credits, with the song "Into The West" playing -- doubly poignant considering it was written for a friend of theirs who succumbed to cancer. Let's say I did a post on this quite a while ago, when I was still in eleventh grade.
-The reunion with Merry and Pippin (I just love Gimli's response. :) A lot of people didn't react kindly to film!Gimli, but I personally liked him. It would have been easy for him to go into annoying territory, but because of John Rhys-Davies' undiluted awesome -- plus the writing -- it works. That and most of the humor comes from him "overcompensating" at times and bickering with Legolas, not from his stature). That and considering THE TWO TOWERS and everything, it was just a relief for the hobbits to meet up with Aragorn and co. again. It's both adorable and funny at the same time.
-Saruman's death. Because they couldn't get The Scouring of the Shire into the film (more on that later), they transplanted it to the top of Orthanc tower and it worked. It really did. There's something beautifully karmic about Saruman's death scene -- basically dying on the machinery that he created, at the hands of a minion he constantly mistreated. Plus, his words to Gandalf before his death are pretty nice foreshadowing for what happens later with Denethor.
-The relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn, as well as Aragorn and Arwen. Poor Eowyn...*Pets her*
-The relationship between Eowyn and Theoden, such as at the banquet scene (also a nice little touch on Theoden's character growth, considering Bernard Hill was pretty adamant that Theoden didn't "get better" immediately after he snapped out of the spell Saruman put on him. That he still has some guilt left over for failing his people, failing his niece, etc., and it's up to Aragorn, Eowyn, Gandalf, etc. to remind him that no, it wasn't his fault) and, later, when he comforts Eowyn after Aragorn basically dumps her. (The scene's also a nice bit of foreshadowing for what ultimately happens to Theoden on the fields of Pelennor -- he's basically saying to Eowyn, "If I don't return from Pelennor, rule in my stead.") Which ultimately makes Theoden's death at the hands of the Witch King all the more heartbreaking and Eowyn's battle with the Witch King all the more awesome.
-Eowyn's battle with the Witch King. Just...all of it.
-Arwen ultimately choosing mortality. Not only is it a quiet CMOA for Arwen (who's been torn between love and duty to her father), but it's also a very beautiful sequence. It really does show where Arwen's true strength lies -- not in strength of arms, but in her faith in and love for Aragorn. I think both Hugo Weaving's and Liv Tyler's performances really stand out here, especially in this exchange:
ELROND: Your hands are cold. The life of the Eldar is leaving you.
ARWEN: This was my choice, Ada -- whether by your will or not, there is no ship now that can bear me hence.
Just something about Liv Tyler's delivery there just...breaks my heart every time. And shortly afterwards, Elrond calls upon the elven smiths to reforge Narsil -- for Arwen's sake.
+ Elrond is particularly awesome in this film -- going to Dunharrow to deliver Anduril to Aragorn because Sauron's power is spreading through all of Middle Earth, infecting everything -- including Arwen, who's dying.
ELROND: Put aside the Ranger. Become who you were born to be. Take the Dimholt road.
And then, later, lines from the ROTK appendices ("The Tale of Aragorn And Arwen") originally said by Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, long before she died (had to look these up on Arwen-Undomiel.com, just in case):
ELROND: Ónen i-Estel Edain.
ARAGORN: Ú-chebin Estel anim.
Which calls back to their talk in the FOTR Extended Edition, with Elrond, despite everything, having faith in Aragorn -- it's only Aragorn's doubt that's holding him back.
-The culmination of Aragorn's arc in ROTK is just...awesome.
-The Battle at the Black Gates. All of it. From Aragorn's speech to Gimli and Legolas' exchange ("Never thought I'd die fighting side by side with an elf." "How about side by side with a friend?" "Aye, I could do that."), to...basically everything, the Black Gates was just perfect.
- Faramir and Eowyn. One of those many cases when you go, "Why oh why was this cut from the theatrical release?"
- The talk with Pippin and Faramir in the EE. Which makes Faramir's already depressing suicide mission all the more heartbreaking. It's also nice if only because you get to see Faramir smiling as well -- poor boy needs all the smiles he can get. *Pets him*
-The relationship between Merry and Eowyn. Hell, I think Eowyn's good at bringing the awesome and heartwarming in both TTT and ROTK, IMHO.
- Faramir and Denethor's conversation in the Extended Edition. Although I have to say, Denethor? Calling Frodo a witless halfling? Not Helping Your Case. (More on Denethor later) Bit of trivia: Faramir's lines in the movie are actually Gandalf's in the book -- but I think giving them to Faramir here makes them all the more powerful, and show how much Faramir's grown since TTT. (#Why oh why did they have to cut it?)
+ The scene where Denethor basically sends Faramir to his death. Both David Wenham and John Noble did amazing jobs there -- and one interesting bit I can't believe no one else pointed out, when Denethor says, "Yes, I wish that", he actually sounds...close to tears whilst doing so. Perhaps he's still grieving for Boromir and blaming Faramir for it, perhaps he genuinely doesn't want Faramir to go (if Gandalf is anything to go by), or maybe a little of both (again, if Gandalf is anything to go by). Considering what Gandalf says later (see below), I'm thinking that inside, Denethor was going, no, Faramir, I'm sorry, I never thought that, stay, don't leave me but it ultimately came out as "Yes, I wish that." (On the other hand, there's the matter that if Faramir hadn't stepped in, Pippin would have been sent out instead -- sort of Faramir Taking the Bullet for Pippin, really)
* And later, The Last Son/The Edge Of Night . Though the mood is slightly ruined/slightly not ruined by Denethor gobbling tomatoes like a three year old (on the one hand, ew, but on the other hand, it does add to the atmosphere. A little more later, considering I have...mixed feelings about Denethor), it's still a lovely scene. And we get this lovely line from Gandalf:
GANDALF: Your father loves you, Faramir -- he will remember it before the end.
Which makes what happens later with Denethor all the more heartbreaking, really. Because in the funeral pyre scene, before his ultimate run off Minas Tirith, he does call out to Faramir, almost as if begging his forgiveness -- before the flames ultimately consume him. On the commentaries, Peter Jackson does refer to Denethor as a very Shakespearean character, and I think it's true here, especially -- I think it just hit me whilst typing this, really. :) (And if the Cordelia-to-Eowyn comparisons in TTT are anything to go by -- even Bernard Hill Lampshades this on the TTT commentary! -- that's not the only Shakespeare reference we get in the LOTR movies)
-The battle scenes. All of them.
-The scene where Eomer finds Eowyn near-dead on the battlefield, and later, Eowyn's recuperation in the Houses of Healing. (And yes, that song -- that is Liv Tyler singing)
Headscratchers:
-The depiction of Denethor -- because as much as I praised it above, I still have my issues with it. In the book, he's not...well, nice, per se (one thing you can give him credit for is that he did his damndest to rule over Gondor whilst basically being demoralized by Sauron), but in the movie, they definitely exaggerated his...not-niceness, to the point that if you didn't read the books, you wouldn't be aware that he had any redeeming qualities. (Although to be fair, they do try and give him some, such as his relationship with Pippin, etc., but considering what happens later...yeah) John Noble did do a decent job, though, and as time's gone on (and I've listened a bit to the commentaries -- call it "practice" for my screenwriting, because when I first started this blog, I intended to be a screenwriter -- and still do), film!Denethor's kind of grown on me. But I guess one could say the way they handle him is...very critical, to say the least.
+ On the director/writer's commentary, Peter Jackson notes it's very difficult to translate madness to screen -- I'm guessing he speaks from personal experience considering one of his previous films, HEAVENLY CREATURES. That, or at least translating Denethor's madness was difficult. Some scenes he used to do this include, for example, the, um, dinner scene * whilst Faramir's making his suicidal charge to reclaim Minas Tirith. *Winces remembering it* I'm not saying it was terrible because it was well-done -- some nice juxtaposition between Pippin singing, Faramir charging to his death, and Denethor...y'know. On the commentaries, Jackson said he did it because if you basically sent your last surviving son to his death, you'd...lose your appetite, to put it mildly. And for all intents and purposes it worked -- most of the people I've come across commenting on that scene have basically noted how unsettling it is. ** (Although I can't quite take it seriously anymore thanks to EggoWaffles' parody of it, here and the following amusing exchange from Rifftrax:
DENETHOR (whilst eating tomatoes): And why should your songs be unfit for my halls?
KEVIN MURPHY (?) (as Pippin): Well, it's just they're kind of napkin -- I mean nasty --
DENETHOR: Come, sing me a song.
Bless you, Rifftrax. :3
+ The costume designer Ngila Dickson also brought up the issue of translating Denethor's madness to screen -- at least visually, in his costume, making him menacing. Basically coming up with the most elaborate of fur pelts, etc. without resorting to color.
+ The scene where Faramir's brought back after being "killed" -- come to think of it, that's another one of the rare things the movie didn't explain very well. Because in the book, he has the Black Breath (it's hard to sum up, but TL;DR, if it's not treated, the victim basically loses the will to live), but in the movie, it's not really explained. TBF, the nature of the Nazgul and the fear they spread *is* difficult to translate to screen, to say the least -- in the book, Denethor's basically been driven to the point of despair; even if Faramir's not dead, the city's still dying around him. In the movie, they kind of add in a layer of Never My Fault -- Denethor basically going into a psychotic rant about how Minas Tirith's doomed, Theoden's betrayed him, etc...trust me, Gandalf whacking him with his staff is very cathartic. And probably necessary, considering that if Gandalf hadn't done it...well, Gondor would have been doomed, to sum it all up. If Gandalf hadn't taken the reins, so to speak, they would have been in trouble.
* Then there's the matter of Denethor's relationship with Faramir itself -- in the books, Denethor hates Faramir because he's kind of replaying the destructive relationship he had with his father, Ecthelion, when he was a boy (Ecthelion preferred Aragorn -- even though Aragorn technically wasn't Ecthelion's son, it still hurt Denethor a bunch, to put it mildly) -- favoring the warrior (Boromir) over the scholar (Faramir). In the commentaries, it's kind of inverted, one could say -- Denethor's jealous of Faramir, in a way -- what Faramir has that Denethor doesn't (indeed, in the Extended Edition, Faramir notes how similar Denethor and Boromir were, and even hints that Denethor, in a way, used to be a loving father and a stern ruler before he fell victim to the Palantir). Irrational jealousy to boot, considering that Faramir loves his father dearly and wants to please him. And then there's the theory that Finduilas, Denethor's wife, died giving birth to Faramir -- so every time that Denethor looks at Faramir, he sees Finduilas' face.
I don't think either incarnation of Denethor's worse than the other (and honestly, Jackson could have done worse with Denethor. *Cough* The John Boorman version *Cough*), but going over movie!Denethor trivia a bit is...interesting, to say the least. (Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. :) Still think Jackson could have done better though -- it wasn't that film!Denethor was bad, per se; it was just that everything else was so amazingly good that film!Denethor was kind of disappointing, really.
-On a bit of a lighter note, I was kind of bummed that they cut out the Scouring of the Shire -- then again, it was more the filmmakers focusing the story more on Frodo's journey to Mount Doom, and the climax of Frodo destroying the Ring. Still would have been badass to see, though.
+ And also, the "go home" scene -- it wasn't poorly done (quite the opposite, really), but my God, the filmmakers nearly gave me a heart attack there. XD According to the filmmakers, they mostly did it to up the jeopardy in terms of Frodo entering Shelob's tunnel alone, to show Frodo as an imperfect, flawed character, to build the suspense, to demonstrate the power of the Ring (sort of the same rationale for Faramir), and, in a way, to reaffirm the strength of both Frodo (when he takes back the Ring at Cirith Ungol, it's not out of greed, but a desire to protect Sam. He's ultimately learned his lesson back in Shelob's lair -- he takes the Ring back not out of selfishness, but selflessness) and Frodo and Sam's friendship (as this lovely blog post basically puts it, every step they make towards Mount Doom is for each other). Although one could argue it's slightly ruined when Frodo lunges for Gollum after Gollum takes back the Ring, sort of like, "It's my Ring! Mine! Mineminemine! I have learned nothing!" *** (But then again, that's the power of the Ring)
* Which is interesting considering that in the book, Denethor's much more...restrained, one could say.
** Come to think of it (mostly looking at the review page for "What Have Tomatoes Got To Do With Anything", probably one of the only fics on FFN where the comments are actually awesome ), maybe my LOTF-Luke-to-movie-Denethor comparison is slightly flawed -- for all of LOTF!Luke's numerous sins, at least he didn't gobble down tomatoes while Caedus and Jaina were fighting to the death. (Even that's a bit flimsy of a redeeming quality, though. XD)
*** Although it could have been worse -- one of the original thoughts for the Gollum confrontation was to have Frodo actually push Gollum into the lava. They ultimately abandoned the idea, not because it was untrue to Tolkien (indeed, quite the opposite; if Gollum hadn't intervened, it would have been likely that Frodo would have thrown himself into the fire instead. And if Gollum had been pushed, it would have been less malice and more intent to save Middle Earth), but because of the Moral Dissonance factor. They decided to go for a bit of a more "tug of war" thing -- Gollum still falling over by mistake, but Frodo not being a passive bystander either -- which, in the filmmakers' eyes, would have been kind of a letdown for everyone following Frodo. Does it miss the point? Maybe. But it definitely works better in terms of cinematic translation.
And those are my thoughts on ROTK. I remember when My Geek Blasphemy did a poll on what movies should never be remade, I chose FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING (sort of speaking for the entire RINGS trilogy in general). Why? Because maybe it would cover more ground regarding the LOTR movies, but I doubt anyone would be able to match the passion and heart and simple *duty* that Peter Jackson and co. captured. (And no one really has. Which is kind of depressing and yet awesome when you think about it) He may not have made LORD OF THE RINGS, but as far as I know, Peter Jackson is LORD OF THE RINGS. 'Nuff said. :)
And those are my thoughts on ROTK. Can't wait for THE HOBBIT!
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Date: 2011-08-28 05:42 pm (UTC)The one thing that always annoyed me about these movies was how expanded Arwen's role is and how they make her decision out to be something it isn't. In Tolkien, mortality is seen as superior to immortality and seen as the gift of mortals. Also, because Arwen's father was only half-elf, that allows her to have the choice between mortality and immortality. So her choice isn't the huge deal the movie makes it out to be. I'm pretty sure Jackson had a crush on Arwen (and possibly Liv as well) because she shows up in all the posters as if she is a main character and has more scenes, quite a few of which don't work.
And the Arwen decides to say because of a baby rather than because of Aragorn pissed me off so much. Basically, it made it seem as if she wouldn't have stayed if she hadn't known she would have a son. Which changes the whole storyline and is rather sexist in my opinion.
But I might be biased because I totally ship Aragorn/Eowyn. Tolkein wrote it that way first and then threw Arwen in later because he wanted Aragorn to have someone more feminine.
I agree with you completely about Denethor. They definitely over did it in the movie. He comes across as a villain pretty much rather than as a sad old man who has a lot of bad traits but some good ones too.
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Date: 2011-08-28 06:02 pm (UTC)FRODO: I have to destroy it, Smeagol...for both our sakes.
TL;DR, I kind of have mixed feelings about the book scene. On the one hand, yes, relevant moral message, but on the other hand, Frodo and Gollum basically fighting to the death over the Ring...much more cinematic. And Frodo being saved once again from falling by Sam is definitely more powerful than the book version (which already wasn't bad -- well, other than Gollum falling in the lava, which was kind of disappointing) considering it was ultimately Sam's heart that saved them both. As Frodo put it in TTT, "Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam." In terms of moral complexity/detail/characterization Tolkien succeeds, but in terms of emotional content and heart...I think the movies definitely best Tolkien in that department, IMHO.
But I might be biased because I totally ship Aragorn/Eowyn. Tolkein wrote it that way first and then threw Arwen in later because he wanted Aragorn to have someone more feminine.
Yeah, I'll freely admit that kind of bugs me. That, and in a way Tolkien had a bit of a crush on Eowyn, so he kind of had her end up with Faramir (who he freely admitted was his author insert. :) instead. That and he doubted that Eowyn could really be happy with Aragorn. I'll admit I didn't ship Aragorn/Eowyn at first (I mostly saw them as good friends, really, and I think they work better as friends), but I'm warming up to the ship -- at least a little.
I didn't *hate* movie!Denethor per se, but considering all the good stuff in the LOTR movies was amazingly good, it was kind of a letdown, really.
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Date: 2011-08-28 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-28 06:43 pm (UTC)Seriously, they're awesome. :3
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Date: 2011-08-28 06:44 pm (UTC)And WHY DIDN'T THEY PUT THE FULL ARMY OF THE DEAD SCENE IN THE THEATRICAL VERSION??? It explains SO MUCH about who Aragorn is, and his personal journey.
I know a lot of people didn't like the Eowyn/Nazgul scene and said she was weak. Well, smartyapple, how about YOU stand face to face with the Lord of the Nazgul and see how well YOU do?
I've seen him. Like I told you before, I used to hang with the guy who runs Kropserkel.com, who did a PERFECT replica of the Witch King costume. I performed with him a few times, and in costume, Scott is 6'10". Even though I knew that was my friend in costume, I was STILL scared. Because you can't SEE what's under that hood, and you project all your fears into it.
If he'd been "real", I'd just just been like "You know what? You can have him. He's mortally wounded anyway, go nuts. We good? Good. Catch ya' later, Witchy."
Using my Eowyn icon just for the hell of it. :)
Date: 2011-08-28 06:50 pm (UTC)Although, smartyapple? Did I miss something? #Not angry, just curious.)Fortunately, not everybody's against the Eowyn/Nazgul scene; I remember anecdotes regarding people clapping and cheering in the cinema when it happened. :) I think the only real complaints I've heard about it is that they didn't get all the dialogue in, but then again, I doubt it would work on screen (lovely as it is). One reason is that it would sound clunky and hammy, and the other being, some (less-hardcore-Tolkien-fan) people in the audience might be going, "Oh, for the love of God, stop prancing like Snidely Whiplash and kill her already!" (for the Witch King) or "Oh for the love of God, just kill him!" (for Eowyn) I know I was slightly disappointed they didn't get it in -- doesn't stop the scene from being awesome, though. :3
Re: Using my Eowyn icon just for the hell of it. :)
Date: 2011-08-28 06:56 pm (UTC)Yeah, what she actually said was "Whether you be living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him."
Wouldn't really work with the language of the rest of the movie.
Re: Using my Eowyn icon just for the hell of it. :)
Date: 2011-08-28 07:35 pm (UTC)Yeah, what she actually said was "Whether you be living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him."
Wouldn't really work with the language of the rest of the movie.
Yeah. It's beautiful dialogue, but what's most important is whether or not the actors can say it. It's like the old George Lucas Problem -- if your dialogue's too clunky/whatever, the actors are guaranteed to sink. #Okay, maybe that's not always the case, but it is most of the time.
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Date: 2011-08-29 05:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-29 05:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-29 05:07 pm (UTC)First: I love Saruman, and more screentime for Christopher Lee is never a bad thing. Ever.
Second: I wanted to see the other side of the Hobbits, man. In the movie, we get to see four midget heroes surrounded by this race of worthless, small-minded bass-ackwards peasants who never /do/ anything. The way the hobbits outside of the Fellowship (And Bilbo) were treated irks me.
Third: It was incredibly significant both to the overall story arc AND to the symbolism of the book that the struggle would reach the Shire.
Fourth, and probably most importantly: I'm sorry, Mr. Jackson, "I DON'T LIKE THAT PART" is not a good reason to BUTCHER A LITERARY MASTERPIECE.
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Date: 2011-08-29 05:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-29 06:30 pm (UTC)Eowyn's defeat of the Witch-King was always one of my favorite parts from the books. It may, in fact, be my absolute favorite part of the whole trilogy. And while the scene in the movie is awesome, I find it a poor second to the book's. Not sure why, exactly. Maybe Jackson went a bit too far the other way with the dialogue - made it too abrupt. Or maybe it's something to do with the stabbing-in-the-headspace gesture and then the energy burst that follows.
I felt they went a little overboard with Denethor, but I was thoroughly versed with him from the books. No idea what I'd've thought of him if I'd been less of a book fan.
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Date: 2011-09-05 02:55 pm (UTC)1 year can be lain between to yet again 2 expression fall and rise while orbit is actually adumbrati
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