ladyofleithian | NaNo updates (plus a bonus rant)

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NaNo updates (plus a bonus rant)

Got 10,087 words today. Also on the duel with Dooku. Doing pretty well, I think, considering the circumstances. Pretty tired right now, but relatively satisfied.

Also, a bit of a ramble, based on one post that I read (thanks to a recommendation by fangirlblog). I don't know how qualified I am to really talk about this (and I doubt I can be as eloquent as some of the commenters were), but it was something that really struck me, and I kind of want to talk about it:

Basically, this post ("Things I Will Not Do To My Characters. Ever.") by seanan_mcguire discusses one incident where someone asked when one of her characters was going to be raped. Almost as if it were par for the course in terms of female characters. When she said no, no one was going to be raped, the person said (and I quote): "I thought you had respect for your work. That's just unrealistic."

There are so many things wrong with what they just said that frankly, I don't even know where to begin. First off, there's the matter of, "Is there a strong female character in there? Then she has to be raped." Which is so many levels of sick that I can't frankly count them. It plays to the whole Rape as Backstory and Rape as Redemption (as well as other unfortunate rape tropes) in fiction. Want to give someone an edgier backstory? Include rape. And then there's the whole ickiness of Rape as Redemption that I severely wish would just die in a fire: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapePortrayedAsRedemption?from=Main.RapeAsRedemption. It's the sort of, "Oh, there's a bad girl/someone who actually enjoys sex/etc.? We can't have that; have her raped." Which plays to some of the really horrible instances of slut shaming in our culture -- if a girl is wearing revealing clothing, has an active sex life or anything else, she doesn't deserve respect. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

Not to mention some of the horrible myths about rape that exist in our culture -- things like if a girl is wearing tight clothes, she's inviting a man to rape her. Never mind that nobody deserves to be raped, and rapists don't discriminate. In addition, it portrays rape as sort of an "Oh ho, that man was just mindbogglingly horny; he couldn't help himself!" when in fact, it's not about that at all. There are many reasons for rape, but mostly, it's for the sake of power and control. Again, rapists don't discriminate. Not to mention, it's the twenty first century. You would think that we would have moved past this idea. Apparently, we haven't. And it's probably going to take a long time before we actually do.

Second off, it plays to the horrible stereotype that works that aren't nonstop Crapsack World-esque things aren't realistic. It's stuff like that which explains things like REVAN and the ending of MASS EFFECT 3, as well as others. Which -- no. It's not realistic in the slightest, and it's not good writing. It's okay to show bad things that happen in life in fiction, but at least, have some degree of hope at the end. Not to mention, look over things like this and ask, for example, in this case, "Is this rape scene necessary?" If it doesn't have any other purpose except for shock value, don't include it. Rape should never be used for shock value. In fact, a lot of things should not be used for shock value, but this, IMHO, is near the top of the list.

It's not the fact that rape should never be talked about or discussed or anything else. It's mostly the fact that it has to be done well. And unfortunately, a lot of instances of rape in fiction aren't done well. If anything, it's always done for some sort of cheap shock value or what-have-you. I actually remember Film Brain's review of "The Cavern" where the movie ends (and possible spoiler alert) with the monster killing one of the girls and beginning to rape the other. From what I can remember, he already hated "The Cavern" if only for its general incompetence in terms of being filmed, as well as the terrible characters and everything else, but it was the ending scene that really pushed him over the edge in terms of being angry. And honestly? I quite agree. To paraphrase him, you have to think about the weight of including a rape scene before you actually include it -- having it in there for shock value or to make things more "realistic" and "edgy"...it's deplorable, really. If it's done in a way that works for the story and is handled well, yes, it can work. But I'm thinking that it's not what the person in question had in mind. They were thinking that one can't write a good story unless one of the strong female characters gets raped, which is completely wrong. Unfortunately, it's in comics, it's in literature -- stuff like that is in media almost everywhere these days. For example, the matter oft Identity Crisis, what with Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny. Honestly, if one was to make Dr. Light a more threatening villain, you didn't have to include rape in there. There were other ways you could make him a more threatening villain without including rape. Unfortunately, it seems that most of the time, rape seems to be what the lazy writer resorts to when they want to create drama. Look at a lot of fanfiction out there -- want to cause some cheap drama? Have a character raped. In truth, it's not like that in real life -- rape is a horrible experience which no one should have to go through. Unfortunately, for every writer who seems to get it, there are writers that simply don't get it.

And honestly? That makes me angry more than anything else.

And those are my two cents on the matter. I hope I handled the subject well and everything, and made sense. What are your thoughts?

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I think the biggest issue is the Rape is a Special Kind of Evil trope. For a lot of people, it's hammered in their heads as the worst crime evil (or at least the worst crime readily available to a lot of people). And I don't say that to trivialize the action, really. But I remember a quote (Gail Simone said it, I believe), that you should give thought to whether or not you NEED to include rape. If not, don't. People just jump to rape as a quick way to hurt or break a character and show another character is evil, when the same result could be reached by beating someone with a baseball bat, shoving them off a cliff, psychologically screwing them up, etc.

Reminds me of the dissonance between the canon of the anime Axis Powers Hetalia, and the fandom of the series. The series is far from being kid-friendly (the dub was rated M for a reason), but negative relationships between the nations were portrayed by the characters throwing insults, punching, kicking, and other such things. In fanfictions, especially darker and edgier ones, guess what the antagonists tend to resort to first? Imprisonment, starvation, whipping, and other such things the characters undergo in those sorts of fics undergo are usually the lead-up, when they alone would work fine.

Um...just my thoughts. ^^;

Gail Simone really has a talent for nailing things, doesn't she?

And very well-said! Seriously, you said it better than I ever would. :)

Had to peek in from Dreamwidth just to see what everyone's doing. Nice job on the word count!

Oh, you brought up Identity Crisis... that was the beginning of the end for DC Comics. That's where it all went wrong for DC, and that was just the tip of a much bigger iceberg. I know that's not what your post is about, but I think the two ideas go hand-in-hand. They went there because they thought it was more "realistic" and "dangerous to tell that story" and yadda yadda yadda, and the universe just lined up behind it and self-destructed. Telling a story like that... there's a time and a place and a point. If you have all of the three, you just might get a Nobel prize out of it for rape awareness or whatever. Missing any of the three, it's just trash trying to play up to what people are told they should expect as modern sensibilities. They went into mind-wiping friend and foe alike, the idea that the heroes had to be killers to protect one another, monkeying with the timeline and parallel universe yet again... all of it in the name of "darker and edgier," the buzzwords that mean absolutely nothing in the realm of quality storytelling.

Well, good to see you at any rate. :) *Hugs* And thanks!

And yeah, I know what you mean. Darker and Edgier can be done right, but there has to be a degree of thought put into it. If you're just doing it for the hell of it, it's probably going to backfire. If you actually put thought into it, e.g. exploring some of the more troublesome themes of the original work, etc., it may work. It has to be handled intelligently is the key. As is the same for pretty much every method of storytelling. I think that's my problem -- it's not handled intelligently. If it were...well, it would actually work. But it doesn't sound like IDENTITY CRISIS handled it intelligently, really.

Identity Crisis was handled about as badly as it could have been on all fronts, and I could go on and on about some of the things they pulled. Ever see Wonder Woman's lasso as a noose? It's the cover of issue 3. Yeah... This book is a shining example of what not to do with established comic book heroes and how well it'll sell because of it. If they'd done like in Watchmen and used new characters, maybe it could have worked on some level, but they needed the history in order to break it. That was the entire point. And it didn't stop there. Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis kept moving that train forward into dumber and less-coherent territory.

You pretty much nailed it - pick your buzzword, you have to use the tool intelligently. After that, pretty much any topic you choose can have relevance. I find it interesting (and a bit disturbing) that rape is somehow seen as a necessary story trope these days, and those who argue against it think it's more harsh than murder. Both sides of that argument are just messed up, but I think that's the effect of a much larger problem at work. We've gotten used to murder, so we have to villify something else? That doesn't quite ring true either, but that seems to be what's going on in fiction these days.

Ugh, that sounds bad. Thanks for the warning; def. staying away from IDENTITY CRISIS, etc.

Well, I think it's far worse than murder because it utterly destroys your world. I mean, from what I've heard, it's sort of a case of...well, you start blaming yourself, you feel unsafe...the physical injuries are bad enough, but the emotional injuries are just as bad if not worse.

And then there's the matter of society's response to it. Mostly in regards to some people thinking she asked for it, because of what she was wearing or how she was acting, or she was drinking, or anything else. (And on the other side of the coin, there are people who deny that men can be raped and/or play it for laughs -- e.g. prison rape -- which is just as disgusting, really) Never mind that no one deserves to be raped, and if anything, anyone with a functioning brain cell would know that it's the rapist's fault. They chose to ruin someone else's life. (There's actually a wonderful post about that matter that I'll link you to later) It's not just a violation of the body, but the soul. And I think it's why one shouldn't use it in fiction: you have to actually put some thought into it. Does it advance the story, plot, or characters, or themes? If not, don't use it.

Dumb question, but how does murder not destroy your world, not to mention the world of those around you? See what I'm saying? Every argument you list can be applied to rape, murder, and a host of other such problems. Which affects a person more is completely determined by the person and, for lack of a better word, the presentation of the story in question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say any of this is good. Far from it. I just simply don't get the idea of a "lesser evil." When you're dealing with this stuff, it's either wrong or it isn't. I don't think there's a question as to which it is.

As to whether or not it should be dealt with in fiction... I think everything should be dealt with in fiction. Used responsibly, it's easier to present these kinds of arguments in fiction. The way racism was dealt with in To Kill A Mockingbird, for example, made it easier to address the real life equivalent. Why should rape be off limits because it makes people uncomfortable? It's supposed to be uncomfortable. That's the point. That's where hard-hitting storytelling begins. The problem isn't the subject matter, it's the maturity level of the writer and/or audience. If it's being used to for the sake of exploiting it as window dressing, then it's not a case of it shouldn't be used. It's a case of the writer shouldn't be writing. If it's a question of the audience being uncomfortable, that goes into the arena of personal taste. Personally, I go out of my way to be offended at least once a week just to remind myself I don't have the right not to be offended. It's a lesson everyone needs. Most people can't handle it or don't want to, and that's fine. If you don't want to see it, my recommendation is simply don't look at it. If you know it's there and don't want in, then avoid it. Some things are done simply to make money, and they will because that's the objective, whether the subject matter is handled well or not. There's no fighting that other than to vote with your dollar.

Anyway, I hope that didn't ramble too badly. I'm not trying to support it. I just get how things can work sometimes, whether I like it or not.

I kind of meant in terms of the victim personally, but good point. I think rape is worse if only because it's a violation of someone else's well-being as well as their body. Not to mention it's so often used as a sort of punishment from the rapist, e.g. teaching someone a lesson. Which I think makes it worse. It's sort of a case of hatred of women (or men, for that matter), or claiming what they think they deserve. There's always a sort of hatred of a certain type in murder, but rape definitely takes it up the scale.

Besides, current subject aside, there's always things someone can do that are worse than murder. Humiliation, for example. Also, check under this page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndIMustScream. There are many things that are worse than just killing someone. I'm not invalidating murder, merely saying.

Very good point. The problem is that it's very rarely done well. I already mentioned THE CAVERN, as well as multiple fan fics where someone's raped just so they can be rescued by someone else. It's sort of a case that...yes, the writer shouldn't be writing. At least, they shouldn't be writing about that subject. The problem is that rape is so often used for shock value that people get a little leery when it's seen in fiction. When it's done well, it's done well. Look at the book SPEAK, for example. But when it's done horribly, it's done horribly. And we come back to THE CAVERN again.

Not to mention everyone has different comfort zones. I mean, if someone doesn't want to have their characters being raped, they have the right to not write it. And really? There are more powerful ways to get your point across than rape. The problem is that some people (at least in general) don't seem to understand.

Right, it comes down to power. Some use a weapon, some use humilitation, whatever. I still subscribe to the idea of where there's life there's hope, so I'm never going to say rape is worse than murder. You can live through it, and you can deal with the psychology. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, but to humanity as a whole, if we can somehow deal with holocaust and war, rape is almost minor league by comparison. Almost. But as I said, it's subjective. To one who's been through it, you'll never convince them either. Then again, if someone's been through both, rape and war, maybe they can say which is worse. Murder... nobody's talking. What makes anything worse than anything else is perception, nothing more, nothing less. Eye of the beholder stuff.

Can you tell my stream of consiousness mode is kicking in?

That it's rarely well done isn't the fault of the writer. If the writer's getting paid (i.e., rewarded), then that's positive reinforcement. That writer will do it again. Who's at fault? The publisher for giving him the shot? The audience for paying for it?

I totally agree - there are always other powerful ways to get anything across in writing. It comes down to the quality of the writer. Some people are better than others, and some simply will never get it.

I know. But at the same time, rape takes plenty of time to recover from. Not to mention, in between all the slut-shaming and everything else -- I say rape is definitely a very important subject. I mean, maybe it is subjective, but at the same time, the slutshaming and utter lack of compassion some people show towards rape victims (mostly ranting in general) is definitely something that needs to be stopped.

Not saying that war and the holocaust aren't equally horrible, but still...there's something about rape, and society's treatment of rape victims, that gets to me. And I want it to stop.

You're definitely right. But at the same time, the writer has to take a degree of responsibility as well for not running it past someone else first. I mean...feedback's a pretty important thing, and if someone expresses some degree of disapproval...most of the time it's a good clue that you didn't write it very well.

And very well-said regarding the quality of the writer.

It's much like a phobia. Which is worse: fire, heights, or spiders? To someone who's afraid of one, the others may not be that bad. Clearly rape bothers you for whatever reason, and that's going to affect you. Personally, amputation and being buried alive leave a nasty taste in my mouth, but whatcha gonna do? I can't stress this enough: humans are infinitely adapatable. We as a species can deal with anything. Read Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning, and you'll get what I mean. It'll change your perspective and your life.

That said, if stopping it is something you want to do, the immature writers of the world aren't your targets. Go forth and do. Be a part of law enforcement or become a public speaker or whatever you think is your path to success on that front. Anything you can name, somebody's making fun of it somewhere, somebody else is treating it like it's not a big deal somewhere else, and somebody else is treating it like it's the only problem in the world. If you want to be a part of a change mechanism in society, you have to be out in it, doing what you think is necessary. Whatever path that is for you, I wish you luck. You have the drive, you have the compassion. Just understand, there are no perfect solutions. The more you fix, the more you'll find to fix. That's hard for a lot of crusaders to deal with, and that's what causes people to become jaded after a few turns of the screw. Know yourself, know your crusade, you can make a difference to somebody.

As to the writer, if this clown has an editor or a publisher, it did go past somebody first. And even if not, if someone paid for it, that's all the justification in the world they need. Bad writing isn't a crime. If anything, it's necessary so you've got an example to hold up to the public and say "this is how not to do it. Let's learn from it."

All right. But it's something that has to be stopped in fiction if only because...while I wouldn't say fiction affects all of reality , it plays it's part in it. It's a very small part, but if it can be affected in some way, perhaps a difference can be made.

You'll never make a difference in any of it by trying to attack the creative process on any level. You know how creative types are, being one yourself. If you tell an artist they can't have a yellow sky in their painting, they'll paint nothing but yellow skies from here to eternity just to spite you. Writers are no different, and the ones you're trying to "stop" simply could care less what you think. Your efforts towards making a change for the better would be better served by concentrating on the real world version rather than trying to control the creative process. My two Republic credits, but only you can learn that for yourself.

I don't mean forcing the writers to write what I want. I mostly mean doing it for myself. Finding a way to set the example. After all, most of the great literary movements involved people showing the way, in a sense. And after all -- this isn't a case of yellow skies vs. blue skies -- I doubt I would call it artistic vision. It's a pattern that needs to stop, that needs to end.

And even if I don't, someone will. It won't happen overnight, not by a longshot. But it will happen eventually. You'd be surprised.

I encourage everyone to lead by example. But even then, you won't stop the pattern. You may very well inspire others to do what you're doing, but there's an equal and opposite reaction to all things. That's law at all levels of life. The more successful you are, the more likely people will parody it. That's usually the first sign of success. And where there's parody, direct insult will follow, which will include more of what you fight against.

I'm not looking to discourage you. I'm just pointing out what I'm sure you already know because it does no good to fight the good fight with blinders on. No matter how well-intentioned you are, you're fighting an idea. Ideas are bulletproof, regardless of how wrong they appear to be. Anything you can name that disgusts you is happening out in the real world and in a thousand fictional ones whether you like it or not. If that inspires you to go forth and fight, then by all means, go for it.

Hmmm... I certainly agree that there are very few instances where rape is the only plot device that will fit the story, relative to how often it's used. However, I also think yelling at people for using rape "poorly" isn't the best approach. Lots of people like various aspects of fictionalized rape, from the kink to the shock value and a bunch of other bits. People are very much allowed not to like portrayals of rape for any reason they choose (and I quite agree with a lot of them), and they're allowed to express their dislike, but I don't think they have any grounds for demanding that people stop treating rape in ways they don't like. The exception, of course, is when laws are being broken, like if someone tries to get people to commit rape. And public pressure can certainly do a lot to influence ways in which people/companies/etc choose to portray rape, but it doesn't have to if the creators refuse to change what they do.

Of course, just as you can't call it black-and-white wrong when someone portrays rape in their fiction, you can't call it black-and-white wrong when they don't, either. The person who suggested that the fanfic had to have rape to make the story somehow right has their head up their ass, in my opinion. There are So. Very. Many. Issues. surrounding rape that suggesting that its inclusion is a foregone conclusion implies a highly unconsidered approach to the topic. Which is totally allowed, of course, but not a view that can be forced on anyone else. If that commenter really feels that rape is the only way for a story like that to go, then s/he can write a story like that which includes rape. And s/he can continue to call the author of the non-rape story all kinds of names and say disparaging things about the story, but I personally won't be listening, and I certainly won't be agreeing.

Very well-said. Seriously.

Ugh, I remember when that happened. It's really gross.

I mean, okay. I'm twenty-six and I live virtually on-campus, next to a fraternity, at a university with 30,000 students. Lots of other people hang out at our campus, too - the campus police recently stopped an attempted rape here where neither the perpetrator of the victim were students. Rape is not all that rare in these circumstances and something that, I think, it's sensible to consider when you're deciding whether to take that late-night capstone project across the river or go out drinking with a group of friends you don't know all that well. (Neither is a necessarily bad choice, you just have to weigh the risks - I did take the capstone project.) That's one thing.

The idea that rape is some defining experience of womanhood, however, is a totally different thing and extremely offensive to virtually everyone. "Woman" and "rape victim" are not actually interchangeable words. Nobody's saying people shouldn't write about it ever, just not for the cheap shock/horror/grimdark "realism" points.

Oh sweet Jesus, that has to be terrifying. 0.0.

And seriously, this. So very much.

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NaNo updates (plus a bonus rant)

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