ladyofleithian (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
ladyofleithian) wrote2021-04-10 07:44 pm
ladyofleithian) wrote2021-04-10 07:44 pm
Entry tags:
For genprompt_bingo
Title: When We Were Young: A Character Study Of Poe Dameron and Kylo Ren
Summary: An analysis of Poe and Ben, pre and during canon.
Prompt: The way we were: Pre-canon
Disclaimer: I own nothing.
So, I didn’t think that I would actually write a piece of meta about Darkpilot, but here we go. (A piece of meta that isn’t I-swear-there’s-no-hostages-in-my-basement, at least.
In terms of the origins of the childhood friends theory, there is the fact that Poe and Ben’s families are war buddies, as well as the fact that Leia was watching over Poe according to the TLJ novelization, and Poe not only recognizes Kylo on Crait in the film The Last Jedi, but also in the novelization, Poe knows Kylo is Luke’s nephew, which couldn’t have been common knowledge. In addition, there is the comic where the activation code to bring Poe’s X-wing to him includes Ben’s name, as well as the fact that no one has debunked the fan theory officially. True, there are pieces of contradictory, messy canon, but there’s also allusions, teases, including a flashback of Poe playing with a boy in Freefall who, for some reason, the author decides not to describe or identify.
Even JJ himself seems to ship Darkpilot; when an MTV interview turned to the subject of shipping (more specifically, Reylo vs. FinnPoe), he actually did say, “Why does no one talk about Poe/Ren”, Ren being his nickname for Kylo (as used on the TFA commentary track). Darkpilot may be non-canon, but it does have building blocks for potential.
But how would the two of them perceive each other? That is an additional question.
How Kylo perceives Poe
Now, I don’t know how different my meta will be to how I portray Ben/Kylo and Poe in my fics (although, let’s be real, in my fics set post-Broken-Edge, there’s no consistency), but this is the best way I can think of to help sharpen his characterization.
Unfortunately for us Darkpilot shippers (and maybe fortunately for us, considering Kylo’s interactions with Rey do occasionally leave a rotten taste in the mouth), the interactions between Poe and Kylo are limited, and Kylo’s character is very different from when we’re introduced to Ben in The Rise of Kylo Ren. In The Rise of Kylo Ren, Ben is hesitant to kill; even his murder of Hennix is an accident when he was trying to defend himself as shown in canon, and he attempts to save Voe’s life when she falls, regretting his actions even after she’s determined to see him as a monster. (To be fair to Voe, she doesn’t know that Ben didn’t destroy the Temple) He is capable of feeling compassion even for people who dislike him, such as his assessment of Voe when he’s speaking with Ren about the people he fought (Ren wants him to have a “good death” in his catalog, which he gets by, ironically, killing Ren). When he talks about Voe, he mostly seems to feel compassion for her insecurities, saying things like her not being herself, something Ben most likely identifies too closely with for his own good. Indeed, his conversation with Tai suggests that part of his problems include feeling like he has to live up to lofty expectations. After all, if your family were Rebellion heroes, your grandfather a great Jedi-turned-Sith-turned-Jedi-again, your uncle a Jedi hero...wouldn’t you be stressed out too? It’s likely that the matter of the stress Ben was under makes the Han-and-Leia-abused-slash-neglected-him theory unnecessary. Sometimes stress is enough to make anyone crumble. There is also the piece of information (which I can’t find, but I remember) that Luke was going to have Ben inherit the Jedi Academy as Grand Master, all the talking up of his Force abilities...
If you had all these expectations on you, wouldn’t you finally go, “I just can’t take it anymore”? It wouldn’t be surprising if Ben secretly wished he was average, just to have the weight of expectations off him. Snoke in the TFA novelization doesn’t help either. His extended interactions with Kylo have him alternating between flowery words and adoration one minute, and degrading him the next. Add in some physical abuse and attempted murder in the Snoke Age of Resistance comic, and no, Kylo Ren’s life among the Knights of Ren isn’t really an escape from the pressures of his Jedi life as Ben Solo. If anything, it’s even worse.
It wouldn’t be surprising if he wanted someone who saw him in more nuanced terms, instead of either the savior of the galaxy or the worst asshole ever born. Which, thinking more about it, is tragic.
But yes, Kylo could not be more different from Ben. He’s ruthless, cruel, even if there are places where his better side shows through, such as letting Finn go at Tuanul. So it is hard to evaluate what he really thinks of Poe. We can, however, get hints.
The village capture
When Poe is first captured at Tuanul, it should be noted some interesting details, the first of which that Kylo seems to be using a milder, if still invasive, version of his mind-reading abilities. In the comics, Ben confirms that Snoke taught him how to read people’s thoughts to extract information — at least, the more obviously painful, invasive version. But the interesting thing is that Kylo doesn’t go immediately for the more invasive technique that he uses on Takodana. On Takodana, JJ makes it very clear that Rey is in a lot of pain, with the shot of Kylo’s leather glove coming into frame, and her face screwed up in agony and, later, fear. In contrast, when Poe is kneeling on the ground on Takodana, backtalking Kylo, he shows no signs of agony — though Kylo still manages to pick up the fact that Lor San Tekka gave Poe the map without any effort. He doesn’t push further, either, with the worst he does (which is still not good, mind you) being ordering the stormtroopers to search Poe for the map, and later, to put him onboard Kylo’s shuttle.
In addition, Poe’s capture subverts quite a few villain cliches. When Poe is forced to kneel by the stormtroopers, there is a moment of bleak humor when Kylo nonchalantly squats down in front of him as if to get on his level, tilting his head like he’s curious. He’s relatively tolerant of Poe’s sarcasm, and it is the stormtroopers doing the majority of the roughing up. Even when he says, “The old man gave it to you”, there is something subtle about his voice that seems softer as well. It’s comparable to Darth Sion, and the way he speaks more softly around the female Jedi Exile. The cliche of forcing Poe to watch the slaughter of the villagers is also subverted, although it does not necessarily make it any better.
The effects of Kylo’s actions are not any better, but it is possible to parse his motivations as part of his erratic personality, willing to show mercy one minute and cruelty the next (even RensKnight on DeviantArt pointed out that he very rarely draws his victims’ deaths. Even Snoke, who treated him shabbily, gets a relatively quick death, which makes the idea of him being gratuitously sadistic not in character), and/or having a liking for Poe. Add in Poe seeming familiar with Kylo without the mask in TLJ, and it is likely that, assuming they were friends beforehand if not lovers, Kylo is remembering his prior relationship with Poe and is reluctant to harm him.
The torture scene
The torture scene is a well-filmed scene, if disturbing. The lighting, sound design, and acting is incredibly well done. One interesting part of it is Kylo complimenting Poe twice, still speaking softly. Respectively, “I had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance onboard” and, later, complimenting Poe for enduring the beatings of the stormtroopers. Which only makes one more unsettled, were they in Poe’s position. If someone was giving you compliments you didn’t want while you were in a precarious situation, of course you’d be unsettled.
An interesting omission, also, is that Kylo, in a case of Early Installment Weirdness, doesn’t narrate what he sees in Poe’s mind during the interrogation. In the game Battlefront 2, Kylo is all too willing to narrate what he sees in Del Meeko’s mind. In Rey’s interrogation, Kylo is all too willing to narrate Rey’s loneliness and fear of leaving, her dreams of Ach-To, and her attachment to Han (throwing in a disparaging, out of character remark about Han Solo in there while he’s at it, although it could have been to hurt her further).
Not so much with Poe. Kylo doesn’t bother to narrate the events in Poe’s mind; it mostly involves him saying “Where is it?” over and over again. It doesn’t make it better, but it does make one wonder as to why he’s so very of-few-words when interrogating Poe. Even the torture itself is more implied, cutting away at Poe’s scream (which speaks volumes as to Oscar Isaac’s talents). It's more implied, allowing the viewer to fill in the blanks, unlike Rey’s interrogation where we see everything, and the lighting is more stark.
One could interpret, in the light of the childhood friends theory, that Kylo didn’t want to give away his identity, although he still could have effectively gloated about Poe’s life in order to sufficiently terrify Poe. Now, that does not make the torture scene any less terrifying, but it does raise some questions. Some would say that plot convenience was the reason, and naturally, things do have to occur to make the plot work how it wants to, but looking at it from an in-universe perspective, it could point either to Kylo’s erratic personality, or to a prior history/strange liking towards Poe. (Or both. One never knows)
Putting it all together
It is likely that all this is part of Kylo’s Faux Affably Evil, erratic, conflicted personality. However, in the light of the childhood friends theory, as well as Ben’s personality pre-fall...if Ben knew Poe, it is likely that he held Poe in very high esteem that carried over into his Kylo Ren persona. As Ben and Poe, it is likely that they could confide in one another when they were able to meet (via hologram, most likely. Holograms are a thing in the GFFA!), Poe about his issues with his dad and his desire to follow in his mom’s footsteps, as well as any regret he had over going to Kijimi, and Ben about the pressures put on him. Ben would most likely be sympathetic and, ironically, play the Tai role in terms of telling Poe to be himself, and being more than forgiving of Poe for running away to Kijimi. In my fics, there is the fact that Ben adores Poe (considering I adore Poe), but it could also be a reflection of his Jedi teachings, which make room for the possibility of redemption. He would also be sympathetic as to why Poe ran away, considering his own struggle with expectations.
It is likely that the parts of Poe’s capture and interrogation that stand out can be explained by Kylo carrying some residual affection towards Poe (especially since he puts off interrogating Poe personally until the last minute). It is also likely that Kylo didn’t want to do it; even in the novelization of TFA, he does basically apologize for putting the cuffs on Poe and say that they’re unnecessary in his presence. The novelization also extends their conversation, with Kylo attempting to ask Poe directly where the map is before resorting to mental invasion.
It doesn’t excuse what Kylo does to Poe, ultimately; what he did was terrible and regardless of Kylo’s feelings behind it, Poe was still badly hurt. However, it does give one an inference as to what goes on in Kylo’s mind during the event, which may be helpful in characterizing his interactions with Poe, pre-canon or pre-TROS.
Poe’s perceptions of Kylo
This is more straightforward. In Poe Dameron’s Flight Log, Poe is understandably angry at what Kylo did to him and, miraculously, is restrained in terms of what he wants to happen to Kylo, wanting him locked up (which makes the fics where he out and out sexually assaults Kylo not only racist, considering the demonization of POC as rapists, but also out of character). He doesn’t seem to hate Kylo before the torture; the striking thing about Poe is that he rarely hates someone. (Even Hux he’s willing to give a second chance to in TROS when Hux turns out to be the spy) Indeed, most of his initial responses to Kylo seem more like amusement than anything, which is how Poe treats most of his First Order enemies. Indeed, the characterization of Poe being a Captain Ahab-like figure who hates the First Order and would willingly betray Rey over her Bond with Kylo goes against Poe’s character, considering that most of his interactions with First Order enemies include him making fun of them, and he even refuses to get revenge on the man who indirectly led to his Uncle Lu’lo’s death. He expresses sympathy for the man, even, when he learns he betrayed the Resistance due to his wife being held hostage. When Poe interacts with the First Order, he doesn’t seem to fanatically hate them, and he even pleads with Kylo not to kill the people of Tuanul. (If you listen closely when Poe’s being led onto the shuttle, you hear him going, “No, no!”) Poe is, in all respects, a person with a pure heart, even when he’s misplaced his common sense. He’s kind (and even forgiving) in the sense that fish are wet.
He even manages to bounce back from the Finalizer by remembering what his mother told him about the galaxy being a fundamentally good place. (It is very likely that Poe got not only his love of flying from his mother, but also his love for others. Not in the sense of him being a Latin Lover, but the pure, unsullied kind of love where he’d move the stars for a stranger)
It is likely that his heart is what made Ben fall in love with Poe. His spirit, his heart. (As Luke would say) And Poe’s emotions towards Kylo likely would have been complicated further by recognizing him on Crait. I can picture Poe being conflicted, a mess of emotions, knowing his childhood friend/love and his tormentor are one and the same.
Kylo and Poe don’t get many scenes in canon, but there is potential for a compelling story there. The blocks are
there; it’s up to the authors what to do with them.
Summary: An analysis of Poe and Ben, pre and during canon.
Prompt: The way we were: Pre-canon
Disclaimer: I own nothing.
So, I didn’t think that I would actually write a piece of meta about Darkpilot, but here we go. (A piece of meta that isn’t I-swear-there’s-no-hostages-in-my-basement, at least.
In terms of the origins of the childhood friends theory, there is the fact that Poe and Ben’s families are war buddies, as well as the fact that Leia was watching over Poe according to the TLJ novelization, and Poe not only recognizes Kylo on Crait in the film The Last Jedi, but also in the novelization, Poe knows Kylo is Luke’s nephew, which couldn’t have been common knowledge. In addition, there is the comic where the activation code to bring Poe’s X-wing to him includes Ben’s name, as well as the fact that no one has debunked the fan theory officially. True, there are pieces of contradictory, messy canon, but there’s also allusions, teases, including a flashback of Poe playing with a boy in Freefall who, for some reason, the author decides not to describe or identify.
Even JJ himself seems to ship Darkpilot; when an MTV interview turned to the subject of shipping (more specifically, Reylo vs. FinnPoe), he actually did say, “Why does no one talk about Poe/Ren”, Ren being his nickname for Kylo (as used on the TFA commentary track). Darkpilot may be non-canon, but it does have building blocks for potential.
But how would the two of them perceive each other? That is an additional question.
How Kylo perceives Poe
Now, I don’t know how different my meta will be to how I portray Ben/Kylo and Poe in my fics (although, let’s be real, in my fics set post-Broken-Edge, there’s no consistency), but this is the best way I can think of to help sharpen his characterization.
Unfortunately for us Darkpilot shippers (and maybe fortunately for us, considering Kylo’s interactions with Rey do occasionally leave a rotten taste in the mouth), the interactions between Poe and Kylo are limited, and Kylo’s character is very different from when we’re introduced to Ben in The Rise of Kylo Ren. In The Rise of Kylo Ren, Ben is hesitant to kill; even his murder of Hennix is an accident when he was trying to defend himself as shown in canon, and he attempts to save Voe’s life when she falls, regretting his actions even after she’s determined to see him as a monster. (To be fair to Voe, she doesn’t know that Ben didn’t destroy the Temple) He is capable of feeling compassion even for people who dislike him, such as his assessment of Voe when he’s speaking with Ren about the people he fought (Ren wants him to have a “good death” in his catalog, which he gets by, ironically, killing Ren). When he talks about Voe, he mostly seems to feel compassion for her insecurities, saying things like her not being herself, something Ben most likely identifies too closely with for his own good. Indeed, his conversation with Tai suggests that part of his problems include feeling like he has to live up to lofty expectations. After all, if your family were Rebellion heroes, your grandfather a great Jedi-turned-Sith-turned-Jedi-again, your uncle a Jedi hero...wouldn’t you be stressed out too? It’s likely that the matter of the stress Ben was under makes the Han-and-Leia-abused-slash-neglected-him theory unnecessary. Sometimes stress is enough to make anyone crumble. There is also the piece of information (which I can’t find, but I remember) that Luke was going to have Ben inherit the Jedi Academy as Grand Master, all the talking up of his Force abilities...
If you had all these expectations on you, wouldn’t you finally go, “I just can’t take it anymore”? It wouldn’t be surprising if Ben secretly wished he was average, just to have the weight of expectations off him. Snoke in the TFA novelization doesn’t help either. His extended interactions with Kylo have him alternating between flowery words and adoration one minute, and degrading him the next. Add in some physical abuse and attempted murder in the Snoke Age of Resistance comic, and no, Kylo Ren’s life among the Knights of Ren isn’t really an escape from the pressures of his Jedi life as Ben Solo. If anything, it’s even worse.
It wouldn’t be surprising if he wanted someone who saw him in more nuanced terms, instead of either the savior of the galaxy or the worst asshole ever born. Which, thinking more about it, is tragic.
But yes, Kylo could not be more different from Ben. He’s ruthless, cruel, even if there are places where his better side shows through, such as letting Finn go at Tuanul. So it is hard to evaluate what he really thinks of Poe. We can, however, get hints.
The village capture
When Poe is first captured at Tuanul, it should be noted some interesting details, the first of which that Kylo seems to be using a milder, if still invasive, version of his mind-reading abilities. In the comics, Ben confirms that Snoke taught him how to read people’s thoughts to extract information — at least, the more obviously painful, invasive version. But the interesting thing is that Kylo doesn’t go immediately for the more invasive technique that he uses on Takodana. On Takodana, JJ makes it very clear that Rey is in a lot of pain, with the shot of Kylo’s leather glove coming into frame, and her face screwed up in agony and, later, fear. In contrast, when Poe is kneeling on the ground on Takodana, backtalking Kylo, he shows no signs of agony — though Kylo still manages to pick up the fact that Lor San Tekka gave Poe the map without any effort. He doesn’t push further, either, with the worst he does (which is still not good, mind you) being ordering the stormtroopers to search Poe for the map, and later, to put him onboard Kylo’s shuttle.
In addition, Poe’s capture subverts quite a few villain cliches. When Poe is forced to kneel by the stormtroopers, there is a moment of bleak humor when Kylo nonchalantly squats down in front of him as if to get on his level, tilting his head like he’s curious. He’s relatively tolerant of Poe’s sarcasm, and it is the stormtroopers doing the majority of the roughing up. Even when he says, “The old man gave it to you”, there is something subtle about his voice that seems softer as well. It’s comparable to Darth Sion, and the way he speaks more softly around the female Jedi Exile. The cliche of forcing Poe to watch the slaughter of the villagers is also subverted, although it does not necessarily make it any better.
The effects of Kylo’s actions are not any better, but it is possible to parse his motivations as part of his erratic personality, willing to show mercy one minute and cruelty the next (even RensKnight on DeviantArt pointed out that he very rarely draws his victims’ deaths. Even Snoke, who treated him shabbily, gets a relatively quick death, which makes the idea of him being gratuitously sadistic not in character), and/or having a liking for Poe. Add in Poe seeming familiar with Kylo without the mask in TLJ, and it is likely that, assuming they were friends beforehand if not lovers, Kylo is remembering his prior relationship with Poe and is reluctant to harm him.
The torture scene
The torture scene is a well-filmed scene, if disturbing. The lighting, sound design, and acting is incredibly well done. One interesting part of it is Kylo complimenting Poe twice, still speaking softly. Respectively, “I had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance onboard” and, later, complimenting Poe for enduring the beatings of the stormtroopers. Which only makes one more unsettled, were they in Poe’s position. If someone was giving you compliments you didn’t want while you were in a precarious situation, of course you’d be unsettled.
An interesting omission, also, is that Kylo, in a case of Early Installment Weirdness, doesn’t narrate what he sees in Poe’s mind during the interrogation. In the game Battlefront 2, Kylo is all too willing to narrate what he sees in Del Meeko’s mind. In Rey’s interrogation, Kylo is all too willing to narrate Rey’s loneliness and fear of leaving, her dreams of Ach-To, and her attachment to Han (throwing in a disparaging, out of character remark about Han Solo in there while he’s at it, although it could have been to hurt her further).
Not so much with Poe. Kylo doesn’t bother to narrate the events in Poe’s mind; it mostly involves him saying “Where is it?” over and over again. It doesn’t make it better, but it does make one wonder as to why he’s so very of-few-words when interrogating Poe. Even the torture itself is more implied, cutting away at Poe’s scream (which speaks volumes as to Oscar Isaac’s talents). It's more implied, allowing the viewer to fill in the blanks, unlike Rey’s interrogation where we see everything, and the lighting is more stark.
One could interpret, in the light of the childhood friends theory, that Kylo didn’t want to give away his identity, although he still could have effectively gloated about Poe’s life in order to sufficiently terrify Poe. Now, that does not make the torture scene any less terrifying, but it does raise some questions. Some would say that plot convenience was the reason, and naturally, things do have to occur to make the plot work how it wants to, but looking at it from an in-universe perspective, it could point either to Kylo’s erratic personality, or to a prior history/strange liking towards Poe. (Or both. One never knows)
Putting it all together
It is likely that all this is part of Kylo’s Faux Affably Evil, erratic, conflicted personality. However, in the light of the childhood friends theory, as well as Ben’s personality pre-fall...if Ben knew Poe, it is likely that he held Poe in very high esteem that carried over into his Kylo Ren persona. As Ben and Poe, it is likely that they could confide in one another when they were able to meet (via hologram, most likely. Holograms are a thing in the GFFA!), Poe about his issues with his dad and his desire to follow in his mom’s footsteps, as well as any regret he had over going to Kijimi, and Ben about the pressures put on him. Ben would most likely be sympathetic and, ironically, play the Tai role in terms of telling Poe to be himself, and being more than forgiving of Poe for running away to Kijimi. In my fics, there is the fact that Ben adores Poe (considering I adore Poe), but it could also be a reflection of his Jedi teachings, which make room for the possibility of redemption. He would also be sympathetic as to why Poe ran away, considering his own struggle with expectations.
It is likely that the parts of Poe’s capture and interrogation that stand out can be explained by Kylo carrying some residual affection towards Poe (especially since he puts off interrogating Poe personally until the last minute). It is also likely that Kylo didn’t want to do it; even in the novelization of TFA, he does basically apologize for putting the cuffs on Poe and say that they’re unnecessary in his presence. The novelization also extends their conversation, with Kylo attempting to ask Poe directly where the map is before resorting to mental invasion.
It doesn’t excuse what Kylo does to Poe, ultimately; what he did was terrible and regardless of Kylo’s feelings behind it, Poe was still badly hurt. However, it does give one an inference as to what goes on in Kylo’s mind during the event, which may be helpful in characterizing his interactions with Poe, pre-canon or pre-TROS.
Poe’s perceptions of Kylo
This is more straightforward. In Poe Dameron’s Flight Log, Poe is understandably angry at what Kylo did to him and, miraculously, is restrained in terms of what he wants to happen to Kylo, wanting him locked up (which makes the fics where he out and out sexually assaults Kylo not only racist, considering the demonization of POC as rapists, but also out of character). He doesn’t seem to hate Kylo before the torture; the striking thing about Poe is that he rarely hates someone. (Even Hux he’s willing to give a second chance to in TROS when Hux turns out to be the spy) Indeed, most of his initial responses to Kylo seem more like amusement than anything, which is how Poe treats most of his First Order enemies. Indeed, the characterization of Poe being a Captain Ahab-like figure who hates the First Order and would willingly betray Rey over her Bond with Kylo goes against Poe’s character, considering that most of his interactions with First Order enemies include him making fun of them, and he even refuses to get revenge on the man who indirectly led to his Uncle Lu’lo’s death. He expresses sympathy for the man, even, when he learns he betrayed the Resistance due to his wife being held hostage. When Poe interacts with the First Order, he doesn’t seem to fanatically hate them, and he even pleads with Kylo not to kill the people of Tuanul. (If you listen closely when Poe’s being led onto the shuttle, you hear him going, “No, no!”) Poe is, in all respects, a person with a pure heart, even when he’s misplaced his common sense. He’s kind (and even forgiving) in the sense that fish are wet.
He even manages to bounce back from the Finalizer by remembering what his mother told him about the galaxy being a fundamentally good place. (It is very likely that Poe got not only his love of flying from his mother, but also his love for others. Not in the sense of him being a Latin Lover, but the pure, unsullied kind of love where he’d move the stars for a stranger)
It is likely that his heart is what made Ben fall in love with Poe. His spirit, his heart. (As Luke would say) And Poe’s emotions towards Kylo likely would have been complicated further by recognizing him on Crait. I can picture Poe being conflicted, a mess of emotions, knowing his childhood friend/love and his tormentor are one and the same.
Kylo and Poe don’t get many scenes in canon, but there is potential for a compelling story there. The blocks are
there; it’s up to the authors what to do with them.